Question for Her Majesty's Servants on Bullshido

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 5:39pm

So, as part of my ceaseless vigil on the Internet, I came across this story:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-46-times.html

While I myself saw no problem here, one of the commentors, who I am assuming was an Englishman (or woman) said something to the effect of "I don't see why they had to shoot him, British police disarm crimminals with knives all the time and we don't exactly have an epidemic of dead cops on our hands".

I had SERIOUS doubts about the veracity of this remark, but then again....you lot don't issue sidearms to the Bobbies, do you? How in the name of Cromwell hasyour country NOT descended into anarchy yet? I mean, "Stop engaging in your hooliganism, miscreant, or I shall tell you to stop engaging in hooligianism again in a sharper, more authoritative tone of voice!" doesn't seem like it would work.

Any information/clarification that can be provided would be appreciated.

**diducdat?** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 5:55pm

hehe, yeah, the brits are pretty dumb.

**slamdunc** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 7:17pm

Originally Posted by diducdat?

hehe, yeah, the brits are pretty dumb.

Pretty broad generalization; are you speaking from experience. The British soldiers I worked and trained with were pro-firearm, and pro-law enforcement (they were also some really tough sumbitches).

**Hollykate** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 8:47pm

Well didn't seem like he was causing that much trouble, just walking around in circles in a car park with a pen knife.

we probably would have just minded our own business.

But seriously we would have proably used a few things

1) a taser, it has much greater range than a knife and can incapacitate.

2) pepper spray, also has longer range and incapacitates.

3) a vicious dog, highly trained to bite the knife hand i defy anyone to be faster with a knife than a german sheppard is at taking chucks out your knife hand arm.

4) based on the japanese tonfa the Baton used to break arms and legs and defend against knifes.

**itwasntme** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 9:02pm

Originally Posted by Hollykate

1) a taser, it has much greater range than a knife and can incapacitate.

This may not be a good choice. I think the "rule" is that within 22 feet, someone with a knife drawn can run up on you and stab you before you could even draw your gun/taser.

2) pepper spray, also has longer range and incapacitates.

See above. This could also get in your own eyes. While I'm sure it's a rare case, I have seen plenty of "Cops" episodes where people get sprayed and keep on truckin' (or whatever it is they were doing).

3) a vicious dog, highly trained to bite the knife hand i defy anyone to be faster with a knife than a german sheppard is at taking chucks out your knife hand arm.

Seems like the best idea so far.

4) based on the japanese tonfa the Baton used to break arms and legs and defend against knifes.

In America, this could land you in a long line of questioning yourself.

**slamdunc** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 9:18pm

Originally Posted by Hollykate

1) a taser, it has much greater range than a knife and can incapacitate.

21 foot reactionary-gap vs. 21 foot Taser air-cartridge. Too risky and the in use of force continuum knife=deadly weapon (within reactionary-gap).

Originally Posted by Hollykate

2) pepper spray, also has longer range and incapacitates.

21 foot reactionary-gap vs 10-15 foot stream of OC. Too risky and the in use of force continuum knife=deadly weapon (within reactionary-gap).

Originally Posted by Hollykate

3) a vicious dog, highly trained to bite the knife hand i defy anyone to be faster with a knife than a german sheppard is at taking chucks out your knife hand arm.

This is probably the best use of less-lethal force for the scenario.

Originally Posted by Hollykate

4) based on the japanese tonfa the Baton used to break arms and legs and defend against knifes.

Baton (any impact weapon) is not used to break arms and legs. The system (fluid, shock-wave principle) employs the use of large surface area targets instead of cranial strikes, joint strikes and visceral area strikes which, in turn, decreases the potential of causing, neural injury, hard and soft connective tissue damage and decreases the possibility bone fractures.

The tactical targets are the calf, the thigh, the tricep and bicep muscles. It is used to overcome aggressive resistance at the intermediate level (use of force continuum), and is one level above hard empty-hand strikes.

**TheMightyMcClaw** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 9:20pm

God, what the **** is wrong with my home state.
Oh, that's right. Post-industrial decay.

**TheMightyMcClaw** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 9:24pm

But the public really needs to figure that if you have a knife, and someone is pointing a gun at you and telling you to put it down, then you really ought to put it down. Really really.

**slamdunc** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 9:31pm

Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw

But the public really needs to figure that if you have a knife, and someone is pointing a gun at you and telling you to put it down, then you really ought to put it down. Really really.

Makes perfect sense to me, but there some out there that are 1) suicidal and just don't have the guts to off themselves, 2) drugged to the point that they cannot produce a rational thought, 3) so stupid they couldn't breath on their own if it weren't involuntary.

**csharp.negative** · Posted On: 8/19/2012 10:49pm

'One of the things the public has to understand, an individual wielding a knife at you at about 20 feet can be on top of you in a split second.

'The public doesn't know this because they don't do this for a living.'

Saginaw Assistant Manager of Public Safety Phillip A. Ludos said he watched the CNN segment, but declined commenting on the footage.

'It’s an ongoing investigation and there’s possible civil litigation,' said Ludos, who oversees the police and fire departments. 'We’ve got no statement, one way or another.'

To this I would ask "but why 46 rounds? Why did he have to be turned into mince meat because he had a knife on him? All six cops have standard issue defensive weaponry and hand to hand training, and not ONE of them was capable of fighting the man who was deemed not violent AND had no history of violence. The ONLY reason this man had ever been in 'trouble' with the police was because he is homeless!"

This has happened numerous times, and even Ron Paul has spoken about the police and their abuse of authority. Even though our tax dollars go to protecting these madmen AND training them in so-called "non-lethal force" they still insist on shooting at knife wielders.

Also, this video.