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  1. curiousman is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 9:51am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Chin jab - is it really all that?

    Hi guys I'm a newbie and this is my first post although I have done a search on this forum for the effectiveness of the chin jab and didn't find anything specific. I have never been in a fight and have never taken a single martial arts lesson, so please treat me as a complete ignoramus and explain things fully without assuming that I know anything about fighting or martial arts. I would really appreciate it if someone who has had actual fighting experience gave their input. Also please regard this question as in the context of a life-or-death situation with multiple attackers in an enclosed space, obviously without boxing gloves, thanks.


    I read on the closecombattraining website that:

    "The "Chin-Jab" is the most destructive technique ever developed in all of martial arts history.

    The chin-jab is the coup-de-grace...the finisher...the permanent solution...literally, death in a bottle.

    The chin-jab is so powerful that there is no way to practice the move full force."


    If the chin-jab is really that effective, why don't I see it more often in street fights? Why are most knockouts caused by a punch to the jaw or headbutt to the face, or an elbow to the side of the head, rather than a chin jab?


    Is it because:


    1. Lack of range means that a hook or a cross can easily knock you out when you're closing in for the chin jab?

    2. Lack of power due to it being an upward strike with very little core movement, whereas the elbow involves trunk rotation and the headbutt involves the entire torso leaning forward whilst pulling the attacker into the headbutt with both hands?

    3. Small target size as the chin is very small (2 inch) compared to the entire side of the head (as targeted by an elbow) or the entire face (as targeted by a headbutt), meaning that there is a much greater chance of missing the strike and missing the attacker altogether, leaving the user in a precarious position?

    4. Requirement of an awkward position in which you are facing the side of your attacker so that your right hand can easily catch his chin as your hand is moving upwards?


    Or is it because the chin jab really is such an obscure and deadly move that most fighters never heard of it and those who know it dare not to use it out of fear of killing their enemy? Am I wrong in assuming that just because the chin jab is not used often, it is not useful? Thanks again.
    Last edited by curiousman; 4/15/2012 9:59am at . Reason: Added number 4
  2. robdaze151 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 9:58am


     Style: American Kickboxing

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    are you speaking of simply jabbing someone in the chin? not really up on my tma terms so i am confused.
  3. curiousman is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 10:05am

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    Quote Originally Posted by robdaze151 View Post
    are you speaking of simply jabbing someone in the chin? not really up on my tma terms so i am confused.
    I am talking about the WW2 combative chin jab as taught by Fairbairn and Applegate. It's the first result on youtube when you search "chin jab". The Kelly McCann video.

    If you're not familiar with it - it's like an open-handed uppercut to the chin with your fingers pointing towards you hooked slightly upwards.
  4. JohnKenner is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 10:49am


     Style: Boxing, Judo, Kenpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousman View Post
    If you're not familiar with it - it's like an open-handed uppercut to the chin with your fingers pointing towards you hooked slightly upwards.
    I don't know about it being uber-deadly or anything; but, I wouldn't doubt it efficiency. Like you said, its basically a open hand uppercut - and the uppercut is a punch that has sent many men to the canvas in boxing.
  5. curiousman is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 10:57am

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    I don't know about it being uber-deadly or anything; but, I wouldn't doubt it efficiency. Like you said, its basically a open hand uppercut - and the uppercut is a punch that has sent many men to the canvas in boxing.
    Most boxing knockouts that I've seen are by a hook rather than by uppercut, and many of the knockout uppercuts are done whilst holding the other guy's head still with your other hand so that you don't miss the chin.

    Would it be difficult to hit the other guy's chin with an uppercut if you don't hold his head still?
  6. Tonfa is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 11:01am


     Style: Krav Maga

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    Sounds like a palm strike to the chin via an uppercut (viewing from iPhone app, so have not seen video). While any strike to the chin can potentially cause a knock out, calling it teh d34dly is a little much. The main way way a strike like this (or almost any strike to the head) can be deadly is knocking your opponent to the ground and them coconutting their head on the ground.
  7. JohnKenner is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 11:06am


     Style: Boxing, Judo, Kenpo

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousman View Post
    Most boxing knockouts that I've seen are by a hook rather than by uppercut, and many of the knockout uppercuts are done whilst holding the other guy's head still with your other hand so that you don't miss the chin.
    I believe that's illegal in regular boxing, and fine and dandy in MMA. It's called dirty boxing for a reason :)

    See "You can't hold your opponent and hit him at the same time" from BoxRec

    Also, if you're looking to send a guy to the floor, you don't want to support his head - you want his head to snap backwards (much like a hook or cross turns the head rapidly).

    Would it be difficult to hit the other guy's chin with an uppercut if you don't hold his head still?
    The uppercut is harder to land than a hook, but for me, its a go-to shot. Because I am shorter than a lot of opponents, and I tend to bob and weave a lot, I get them to lean down to fire at me, exposing their chin. Then I fire a combination with an uppercut.
  8. curiousman is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 11:33am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonfa View Post
    Sounds like a palm strike to the chin via an uppercut (viewing from iPhone app, so have not seen video). While any strike to the chin can potentially cause a knock out, calling it teh d34dly is a little much. The main way way a strike like this (or almost any strike to the head) can be deadly is knocking your opponent to the ground and them coconutting their head on the ground.
    The mechanics of the chin jab is slightly different. The chin jab moves upward and then forward whilst the uppercut moves upward and then backwards (am I wrong on this? please correct me if I am). The chin jab feels less powerful when I do it, although the palm is obviously stronger and bigger than knuckles.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKenner View Post
    I believe that's illegal in regular boxing, and fine and dandy in MMA. It's called dirty boxing for a reason :)

    See "You can't hold your opponent and hit him at the same time" from BoxRec

    Also, if you're looking to send a guy to the floor, you don't want to support his head - you want his head to snap backwards (much like a hook or cross turns the head rapidly).
    Ah thanks for the link. It seems to me that some boxers use their other hand to feel their opponent's head position before throwing the uppercut with their other hand. Is this true or am I misreading?


    The uppercut is harder to land than a hook, but for me, its a go-to shot. Because I am shorter than a lot of opponents, and I tend to bob and weave a lot, I get them to lean down to fire at me, exposing their chin. Then I fire a combination with an uppercut.
    Does the uppercut land often enough and with enough effect that you consider it equal to or better than the hook in terms of usefulness and reliability for knocking someone out?
    Last edited by curiousman; 4/15/2012 11:34am at . Reason: added uncertainty
  9. DubhGhaill is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 12:02pm


     Style: MMA/JKD

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    I read on the closecombattraining website that:

    "The "Chin-Jab" is the most destructive technique ever developed in all of martial arts history.
    That's a bit silly.

    The chin-jab is so powerful that there is no way to practice the move full force."
    Maybe. Most people don't allow this in sparring but the Pancrase organization used to hold full contact matches with palm strikes to the head. I believe I recall reading that Bas Rutten had knocked out at least one person with a strike up under the chin.

    If the chin-jab is really that effective, why don't I see it more often in street fights? Why are most knockouts caused by a punch to the jaw or headbutt to the face, or an elbow to the side of the head, rather than a chin jab?
    Most people don't know much about palm strikes.

    Is it because:

    1. Lack of range means that a hook or a cross can easily knock you out when you're closing in for the chin jab?
    No. If that were true than uppercuts would also be useless.

    2. Lack of power due to it being an upward strike with very little core movement, whereas the elbow involves trunk rotation and the headbutt involves the entire torso leaning forward whilst pulling the attacker into the headbutt with both hands?
    No. Try it on the Thai pads and you'll see you get a lot more power out of the Chin Jab than the Uppercut.

    3. Small target size as the chin is very small (2 inch) compared to the entire side of the head (as targeted by an elbow) or the entire face (as targeted by a headbutt), meaning that there is a much greater chance of missing the strike and missing the attacker altogether, leaving the user in a precarious position?
    No. See above comment re: uppercuts.

    4. Requirement of an awkward position in which you are facing the side of your attacker so that your right hand can easily catch his chin as your hand is moving upwards?
    Que?

    Or is it because the chin jab really is such an obscure and deadly move that most fighters never heard of it and those who know it dare not to use it out of fear of killing their enemy? Am I wrong in assuming that just because the chin jab is not used often, it is not useful? Thanks again.
    Definitely obscure and not used often. I think the biggest factor is that virtually nobody allows this kind of move in sparring so it's difficult to develop the necessary sense of timing and distance to make it instinctive.

    Of all the actual violence I've seen/been involved in I know of only one incident in which the Chin Jab was used. In that case it was a large polynesian type bouncer who employed it against another large polynesian type. I'm told it was a one shot knockout. No fatality.

    So we've got Bas Rutten allegedly knocking somebody out with something like a chin jab once and some unknown bouncer allegedly using it once. I definitely wouldn't want to get hit with one, but that's really not a lot of evidence in favor of this technique.

    Also, I'm quite the fan of WWII Combatives but you should be aware that "Captain Chris" of closecombattraining.com is generally regarded as a complete charlatan.
  10. wetware is online now

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2012 12:25pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First off, ignore multiple attackers completely. If you can't handle one then you can't handle many. Even if you can handle one, you CANNOT handle many if they're smart about it. Your best defense against multiple attackers is to not be there. Run.

    Quote Originally Posted by curiousman View Post
    Does the uppercut land often enough and with enough effect that you consider it equal to or better than the hook in terms of usefulness and reliability for knocking someone out?

    Yes. Here's why:
    1) Can be difficult to see coming.

    An uppercut (or the chin jab) is a close range punch. It travels upwards close to your opponent's chest, on the edge of his field of vision.

    2) Can be difficult to block an uppercut and maintain your guard.

    Combos. If it hits, hopefully it'll pop your opponent's head up, outside his guard. Left hook, right uppercut, left hook is a common combo designed to exploit this.

    Blocking an uppercut typically requires moving your guard momentarily opening your opponent to other strikes. A right uppercut, left hook to body, right hook to head is meant to exploit this.
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