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  1. etali is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2012 1:27pm


     Style: BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Training with Bornholme's (chest pains)

    Several months ago I started getting serious chest pains - so bad that I thought I was having a heart attack. I went to the doctor, and they think that I have Bornholme's Syndrome (aka "epidemic myalgia").

    Apparently, it's just an inflamation of the chest lining. Painful, scary, but not serious and normally gets better on its own. The doctor said to take painkillers to bring the swelling down, and they said that I could continue to train if I wanted to.

    It's been almost four months now. The pain is getting less frequent/less intense, but I still can't do BJJ (anything involving lying down, or having anything on top of me, really, really hurts). I also can't do certain weight training exercises. I'm trying to stay active, but I'm limited in what I can do.

    I've turned into a kata monkey in karate, because I can't handle even light blows to the chest (I never thought I'd be grateful for kata, but at least it's a way to keep moving).

    I've seen the doctor four times. They still say it's probably Bornholmes (although I do wonder if it's not maybe chostochondritis), and that I just need to keep waiting it out and eventually it will get better. The doctor did say that whenever I get a cold/the flu it could aggravate the condition - that's not good news considering my job involves going to a lot of big conferences. Even when I'm healthy feel like I spend half the year recovering from trade show snuffles.

    Has anyone on here had this condition before? If so, how long did it take for you to get better? I'd really appreciate any suggestions for ways to manage the pain, or encourage it to get better (heck, I'm even ready to buy-in to the idea of taking dozens of supplements).

    Thanks in advance.
  2. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2012 8:57pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Have not heard of it, what does Google say, i.e is it curable or is it something that will be an ongoing issue?

    If colds/flu make it worse, I would make sure your diet is clean - less/no processed foods and plenty of fruit and veges for vitamins and minerals. There are certain foods that can reduce inflamation, such as pineapple (helps with joint inflamation - don't know about chest) so maybe try more of these foods in your diet. Some foods may also aggrevate this condition, so some research and experimentation will be necessary.

    Some deep breathing exercises and tai chi type movements maybe beneficial.
  3. etali is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2012 1:09pm


     Style: BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for your response.

    Everything I've read on the Internet about Bornholmes suggests that Doctors believe most people get better in a few days (or a week or two at most). However I have seen a lot of people say that they had it as a child and it keeps coming back over and over.

    Most forum posters that talk about it say that they're fine for a while, then get a really bad bout, then get better, another bad bout, etc.

    In my case it's a constant "not that bad but bad enough to get in the way" pain. That's why I keep wondering if I've not got something else instead (e.g. chostochondritis).

    Thanks for the pineapple juice suggestion - I'll definitely try that - I like pineapples anyway :) I'll work on posture/breathing stuff too.

    Thanks again.
  4. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2012 5:24pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My gut feel is that keeping a clean diet would perhaps reduce the chance of flare ups; at the least it will improve your general health. I would recommend eating more fruit than actual fruit juice, plenty of info on Google as to why. Besides most juice you buy is crap; added sugar, pre heating, using the shittest quality of fruit to make it, etc...
  5. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2012 9:20pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    My gut feel is that keeping a clean diet would perhaps reduce the chance of flare ups; at the least it will improve your general health. I would recommend eating more fruit than actual fruit juice, plenty of info on Google as to why.
    The wonderful thing about Google is that it gives everyone a voice, including idiots who know dick-all about actual medicine. Wait, no, that’s not wonderful. The University of Google is not a medical school, and the misconception that a Google search makes you more qualified to comment than an MD is what lands us in a world where parents won’t vaccinate their kids.

    Not that any doctor is perfect, mind you, but someone with access to Google and a medical school education and clinical experience is presumably better able to diagnose and cure than someone without the latter and with high personal stakes biasing their analysis. Nothing wrong with a second opinion, but preferably a second doctor’s opinion, not a Google search for something that seems to match the symptoms. It’s so damn easy, whenever one has symptoms of anything, to Google up something that seems to fit so well—without regards to statistical likelihood, and failing to consider that maybe some of those ‘symptoms’ are unrelated.

    Nothing wrong with a good diet, obviously (clean = less processed? that’s generally good), though it’d be ideal to see a credible source for the claim that pineapple juice is somehow anti-inflammatory, let alone to a clinically meaningful degree. If you want something anti-inflammatory, you could try any NSAID like Ibuprofen. (NSAID = non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. Not all painkillers are anti-inflammatory, e.g. Tylenol/acitaminophen/paracetamol is anelgesic but not anti-inflammatory.) If you want a healthy diet, be careful about fruit juices since they are loaded with sugar (even without added sugar, fruits are naturally high in sugar).

    </rant>
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  6. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 7:11pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its people like you that give me reason not to waste my time posting on internet forums.

    Firstly, I gave the guy very conservative advice; eat more fruit and veges and less processed crap, do some breathing exercises and maybe some tai chi. I also mention certain foods may help his condition and others may aggrevate it. Yet it is you that mention NSAIDs, lol!

    Here is the thing, in order to succeed in life or even just fucking survive you need to be able to discern bad information from good. You must research things and not rely on a single person to spoon feed you the solution to every problem you encounter. If people lack the basic intelligence to do this it is their problem. In certain circumstances you need expert advice, however you need to do some basic research and due diligence to ask the right questions and to see if said expert is what he/she is claimed to be and to ensure you fully understand your options.

    There is probably a whole fucking forum where people with his condition discuss there experiences, therefore it is well worth his time looking at the info on Google and making an informed decision with the consultation of a GP/specialist and maybe even a nutritionalist.

    Btw, It is the Bromelain in pineapple that has natural anti-inflamation properties. I don't really give a **** if you believe this or not.

    To the OP it is always worth getting a second medical opinion, particularly if the doctor can not answer your questions in a way you are confortable with.
  7. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 7:22pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    Btw, It is the Bromelain in pineapple that has natural anti-inflamation properties. I don't really give a **** if you believe this or not.
    It’s not about whether it’s true or not per se. It’s about whether you provide any reason why anyone should believe you. What you have said above basically amounts to: “I should drink pineapple juice because some anonymous guy calling himself ‘mrh80’ says it’s good for me; he also suggests that I do my medical research via Google.” Hopefully you can see the problem with this. If you have actual medical expertise, by all means! tell us! but establish your credentials. If you draw on solid sources, fantastic! just fucking name them.

    nutritionalist
    Then again, if you had medical expertise, you probably wouldn’t be making up words for pretend health professionals.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  8. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 7:56pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I really thought my last post made things clear, but obviously not.

    I have no medical knowledge of his condition, I am not a doctor or a medical professional of any sort. I replied because no one else bothered to and I understand the frustration of a medical condition, that impacts upon your life. Also, I never said pineapple juice, I said pineapple. I even explained why I don't like fruit juices. The OP is not forced to take advice he gets including mine, he must do some due diligence and then consult with a professional about any information he has read as I explained in my previous post. How is asking his doctor some questions based on other peoples experiences with his condition a bad thing, this truly baffles me?

    I mention that pineapple has some promise to help joint inflamation not necesarily chest inflamation. I don't really care enough to find studies for you. Its not like I am trying to sell him a special supplement or to eat nothing but pineapple (hell he even likes pineapple). It is a pineapple for fucks sake a natural fruit with vitamins and minerals not some experimental drug. I am saying that maybe incorporating certain foods and avoiding others can help him; it is something to ask his doctor. I am not suggesting he forgo any NSAIDs or any other treatment his doctor has given him, show me where I have stated otherwise.

    Medical studies are important but at the end of the day a lot of them are rubbish, why? The human body is very complex and a lot of studies only incorporate a small sample size with vague or limited control parameters. I know fruit and vegetables are healthy because I have experienced the benefits, I don't need a study to tell me this.
  9. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 10:49pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrh80 View Post
    Medical studies are important but at the end of the day a lot of them are rubbish, why?
    Well, I’m not a professional, but in my opinion

    1. 0.05 is much too small a P-value (as the BMJ have discussed)
    2. P-values alone ignore prior probabilities; studies should user Bayesian models
    3. File-drawer effect

    I know fruit and vegetables are healthy because I have experienced the benefits, I don't need a study to tell me this.
    Using the exact same logic (and lack of studies), people have established the benefits of homeopathy, leeching, faith healing, and colloidal silver.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  10. mrh80 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2012 12:01am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Using the exact same logic (and lack of studies), people have established the benefits of homeopathy, leeching, faith healing, and colloidal silver.
    I'm not really interested in debating with an obvious troll. Show me where I told the OP to not follow the advice of a medical practitioner or STFU.
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