Combinging Karate (hand techniques) with Boxing?

**shotokanbjj** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 9:46am

been having a hell of a hard time lately with this. I've done shotokan for around 9 years now (the last year and a half on my own), and have been trying to get more seriously into boxing at my gym for the past few months (unfortunately i'm only able to make it to 1 boxing class a week, 2 if i'm REALLY lucky and don't work thursday nights, so that's part of my problem but it is what it is), and i've been having a difficult time with the sparring. I've certainly improved over the past couple months, but i feel stuck right now.

I feel like i'm at a point where i can't quite apply either as effectively as i want to. I've been trying to work on using some of the skills that boxing teaches (i.e. covering up, using footwork to get around people rather than karate footwork of getting back) and applying it with a combo of boxing and karate punches (obviously some hand techniques i can't use, because of boxing gloves, and the fact that we're doing light boxing sparring lol), but i'm having a really hard time with this.

I don't know how to word it better sorry, if anyone has experience with this let me know, i'd love to figure out some things i can do on my own time to help improve in this!

**shotokanbjj** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 9:47am

just realized i posted this in the "advanced" section, it could probably just be moved to the basic section, sorry about that.

**HereBeADragon** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 11:24am

Things you can do on your own? Speed Bag, Double End Ball and Heavy Bag all come to mind. Also try working shadow boxing into your training. Might help.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 11:33am

Some styles do not mesh well. You need to pick one or the other and incorporate/mix both later. You are still a beginner to boxing even with 9 years of striking. What I found is TMA doesn't always mesh well with Boxing, but it is easier to mesh a boxing background with TMA.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 12:41pm

If I were you, I'd approach boxing as a complete beginner. It can be tempting to go "oh, this is like karate thing X, so I already know it", but you can miss out on a lot with that approach.

**shotokanbjj** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 3:18pm

HereBeADragon: I don't have access to a speed bag or double end bag so that's out of the question atm, but i do hit a heavy bag heh, always have always will ;) We shadow box before every class, and i've been doing it more at home so i'll keep it up :)

It Is Fake: oh don't misunderstand me, i'm DEFINITELY a beginner and definitely aware of my "beginnerness" heh. I talked to my coach a bit and he said i am doing a better job of covering up and "moving" like a boxer moves, so that's definitely a plus, i just feel like i should be better at it than i am, but i have to accept that there's quite a bit about it that my body just doesn't "know" yet. Ya it's been tough meshing these together, the only advantage is that i didn't have to learn how to rotate my hips at all when i punch since i definitely have that down pretty solid already, and i'm pretty tough to hit as a result of the karate foot work (at least as far as getting away).

My biggest issue so far is applying offense without getting hit too much (the karate i trained and still train is purely for self defense, the situations we trained for were for point blank contact, and that's kind of a bad place to be against a boxer lol, i'll get it though i'm sure, i am trying to improve my range which is my biggest downfall right now, i always get hit and miss them by an inch or so -_-

Permalost: I am man :) But i will say this, i'm finding striking similarities more and more as i think about it and do it. A back fist isn't really that much different than the way a jab is thrown (aside from hitting the temple side of the face instead of square on), a cross isn't that different from the way i executed my reverse punches, and a close hook is pretty similar to how i rotate myself in when i do knife hands, so i think i need to try to keep improving the boxing basics, and work on training my body to do them the same way it knows how to do the karate.

Ugh i like the kick boxing so much more lol, i was taught to fight using my hands and my feet, it's frustrating knowing i could keep the guy back with kicks and set him up for punches easier but knowing that i can't kick in situations when my body wants to xD Oh well, i'll get it eventually :)

Keep the tips coming guys ^_^

**Permalost** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 4:03pm

Originally Posted by shotokanbjj

Permalost: I am man :) But i will say this, i'm finding striking similarities more and more as i think about it and do it.

Fun story- when I quit teaching kung fu, I found a job opportunity on craigslist for the local boxing/kickboxing/mma place. The interview was 2 days of working out- one of cardio/techniques/bagwork/mittwork, which I did well at. Day 2 was boxing-style sparring. Being an experienced kung fu guy with a good sanshou background, I didn't think it would give me much trouble. After two or three continuous punches I'd be picking up my foot to finish with a round kick but I'd remember and put it back down. I got beaten pretty thoroughly, and we stopped because my nose wouldn't stop bleeding. Moral of the story- boxing is boxing, and it will teach you to box better than other martial arts.

A back fist isn't really that much different than the way a jab is thrown (aside from hitting the temple side of the face instead of square on),

IMHO the backfist is a good deal different from the jab, basides the striking surface and target. A stiff jab uses the forward step and body turn to put the body behind it in a structural way, not just a kinetic way. It isn't necessarily "flicked out" the way one might do a uraken, and this is the sort of thing where it can be easy to miss the forest for the trees.

a cross isn't that different from the way i executed my reverse punches, and a close hook is pretty similar to how i rotate myself in when i do knife hands, so i think i need to try to keep improving the boxing basics, and work on training my body to do them the same way it knows how to do the karate.

I think the pitfall there is if you insist on doing them the "way your body knows how" from karate, you may end up executing a lot of things more flat-footed than you should.

Ugh i like the kick boxing so much more lol, i was taught to fight using my hands and my feet, it's frustrating knowing i could keep the guy back with kicks and set him up for punches easier but knowing that i can't kick in situations when my body wants to xD Oh well, i'll get it eventually

Just know that you could shoot your opponent with a gun and there's nothing he could do about it, but this is a boxing match so that's irrelevant. The sheer ridiculousness of that should keep your deadly krottyness in check, as it did with mine.

**Odacon** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 4:24pm

You can use reverse punches and ridge hands in boxing/kickboxing but the straight punch flurry will get your head knocked off.

**shotokanbjj** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 5:12pm

Originally Posted by Permalost

Fun story- when I quit teaching kung fu, I found a job opportunity on craigslist for the local boxing/kickboxing/mma place. The interview was 2 days of working out- one of cardio/techniques/bagwork/mittwork, which I did well at. Day 2 was boxing-style sparring. Being an experienced kung fu guy with a good sanshou background, I didn't think it would give me much trouble. After two or three continuous punches I'd be picking up my foot to finish with a round kick but I'd remember and put it back down. I got beaten pretty thoroughly, and we stopped because my nose wouldn't stop bleeding. Moral of the story- boxing is boxing, and it will teach you to box better than other martial arts.

IMHO the backfist is a good deal different from the jab, basides the striking surface and target. A stiff jab uses the forward step and body turn to put the body behind it in a structural way, not just a kinetic way. It isn't necessarily "flicked out" the way one might do a uraken, and this is the sort of thing where it can be easy to miss the forest for the trees.

I think the pitfall there is if you insist on doing them the "way your body knows how" from karate, you may end up executing a lot of things more flat-footed than you should.

Just know that you could shoot your opponent with a gun and there's nothing he could do about it, but this is a boxing match so that's irrelevant. The sheer ridiculousness of that should keep your deadly krottyness in check, as it did with mine.

1. That's more or less what i mean, it's just a matter of breaking the habit, to make myself know that just because i'm used to doing things a certain way, they don't apply in this particular situation. One day at a time.

2. I personally do my backfist very similar to how i trained jabs in karate (it's not that much different in boxing, more a matter of keeping my chin down alot more than i used to), it comes out fast and hard and retracts with the same speed if not faster than my jab does, it just hits from a different angle. I do a forward step with the back fist and line my entire body up behind it like i'd do for my jabs. If i can ever get a video of it i'll post it, that'd probably be easier to show than trying to explain it. Though honestly the only time i tend to land it is if i can get any sort of trapping going on, which is no doubt made easier by the boxing gloves, even though the back fist suffers from them lol, double edged sword i guess.

3. I meant more along the lines of making the boxing techniques feel as natural to me as the karate techniques, to "my body" rather. I've been making a HUGE effort to not be flat footed when i box, it's a work in progress to say the least, but it's improving.

4. Refer to the first point you made that i was talking about here, it's the same thing. It's more a mental habit i'm trying to break than anything. My body wants to kick, i have to force it not to. It's becoming more of a habit than something i have to force though so that's a plus :)

I don't claim to have deadly krotty ;)

Odacon: ridge hands haven't really worked out well for me thus far, mainly because of the boxing gloves, can't really hit with the ridge of my hand when it's surrounded by an inch of padding and my fist has to be closed heh. I have been using the body mechanics behind a ridge hand though, just turning it over into more of a straight punch, i notice it tends to make people cover up high, so i've been using it to hit to the gut. That's about the biggest achievement i've been able to pull off thus far to be honest -_-

**Permalost** · Posted On: 2/07/2012 6:43pm

Originally Posted by shotokanbjj

Though honestly the only time i tend to land it is if i can get any sort of trapping going on, which is no doubt made easier by the boxing gloves, even though the back fist suffers from them lol, double edged sword i guess.

I started writing you a thing about the backfist vs boxing, and looking at it now, it can seem kinda cynical and maybe even like style bashing, but have a look and see if you can relate to any of it. These are more common problems you may find than a scathing "thou shall not backfist!!" kind of rant. I still keep the backfist as a tool but not really for boxing. Anyway, here's some thoughts about that from a guy that's had a dojo-dominating backfist fail against pugilism:

You will be hard pressed to make a trapping backfist work with proper boxing gloves on, and it'll likely lack any pepper through the gloves. Not just the gloves though, but the stance you'll probably be facing. I used to do those ones where you'd slap down with the back hand as you do a backfist, but that'll tend to work best against a more typical karate/kung fu stance. By that, I mean a more sideways stance typically with the lead hand more extended and the rear hand a little lower than a typical boxing stance. When the body is turned to a more square position, with the forearms vertical in a boxing guard, its hard to create that same line to attack. If you do, you may notice that the boxer has some tools to deal with the attack even though its unconventional:
-defensive use of the shoulder may stifled your attack even if your hands get past their hands (defensive shoulder use seems pretty uncommon in karate and kung fu).

-tucking the chin will not only protect the chin, but put the head in a better position so a strike isn't so jarring. This sort of thing can even be used to hurt the fist of the puncher more than the head of the punched.

-trying to slap down the lead hand of a boxer in order to create the backfist opening may result in the lead hand circling around your slap and into a hook (hard to block, because your rear hand will have dropped to perform the trap).

-the backfist part will come from a position where the fist has crossed the centerline. Momentary as it may be, that's dangerous for that side, in case they're throwing a cross or overhand as you're stepping into the backfist. You can mitigate this a little bit by using the position as a quick Dracula style cover.

Anyway, these were the pitfalls I found with that style of technique when you bring it to a boxer. Another important thing: the backfist isn't really allowed in boxing. For example, in Olympic boxing you're only allowed to hit with the front of the fist, so that excludes backfists (and other weird strikes). Also they probably won't like it if you throw the spinning backfist in boxing (the pivot punch). You'll likely find that its viewed as a very hard-hitting gimmick punch that only lands because its so unexpected, and that might make the guy throwing it kind of a tiresome pain in the ass to spar with.