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  1. kenny_free is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 4:31pm


     Style: cult of crapple, ATTACK

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Describing Mixed Martial artists as 'Boxers'

    In a friendly debate with a buck sergeant at work (a buck sergeant that's never trained but is a self proclaimed MMA expert), I stated that most successful mixed martial artists found their striking in boxing. I cited guys from Don Frye, to Nate Diaz, to Vitor Belfort, all the way to Junior Dos Santos, and he said that none of them could accurately be described as 'boxers'. What do you boys think?

    *Feel free to move this to YMAS, I was borderline over placing this here*
  2. battheo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 4:52pm


     Style: Shaolin, Goshin Jujitsu

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    Um... I'm not sure what the argument here is... you're right that those guys have a striking skill set that comes from boxing (not sure I'd say most though... Muay Thai anyone?)

    He, however, is also right that none of them could accurately be described as 'boxers'. They're martial artists who use some of the boxing skill set as a part of their game.

    Have I missed something?
  3. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 4:53pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what he said. boxing in mma is different to actual boxing in a bunch of ways, even if the basic mechanics are the same.
  4. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 6:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hold on a second. No one bats an eye at people calling Cain Velasquez or Chael Sonnen "wrestlers", or Demian Maia and Big Nogueira "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practicioners", so why shouldn't fighters who use pugilistic stances and manuvers like Diaz or Dos Santos be described as boxers?
  5. v1y is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 6:29pm


     Style: Internet Warrior, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Hold on a second. No one bats an eye at people calling Cain Velasquez or Chael Sonnen "wrestlers", or Demian Maia and Big Nogueira "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practicioners", so why shouldn't fighters who use pugilistic stances and manuvers like Diaz or Dos Santos be described as boxers?
    The argument might be that Velasquez and Maia competed at the highest level of wrestling and jiujitsu respectively, whereas dos santos did not for boxing?

    I have no problem saying dos santos has a boxing style though.
  6. battheo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 6:33pm


     Style: Shaolin, Goshin Jujitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Hold on a second. No one bats an eye at people calling Cain Velasquez or Chael Sonnen "wrestlers", or Demian Maia and Big Nogueira "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practicioners", so why shouldn't fighters who use pugilistic stances and manuvers like Diaz or Dos Santos be described as boxers?
    It's fine to describe the fighters you use as wrestlers because they both wrestled competitively prior to MMA. Likewise, Nog and Maia were (and still are) pure Jiu Jitsu practitioners as well as MMA fighters. I don't know if Diaz or Dos Santos competed in pure boxing prior to MMA, but I do know that not all of the fighters listed in the op did.

    It's simple: If someone has or does compete in pure boxing then they are or were a boxer. If they study some boxing and apply it to a different discipline, they are not.

    I'm not making a statement concerning skill, just pointing out that the definition of a boxer is someone who boxes. Not someone who uses boxing techniques in an MMA match.
  7. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 6:44pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seems to me that the classic era of boxing got a lot of people thinking that if a boxer wasn't one of a handful of household names (Ali, Frasier, Tyson), they weren't a "real boxer". I have no issues calling someone who boxes a boxer, even if they're not a pro at it. I guess the argument is that a MMA fighter with a boxing style striking game who isn't also a boxer in the poofy gloves sense isn't properly a boxer, but I'll bet if someone is any good at using a boxing style against competitive fighters, they probably are or were a boxer.
  8. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 7:01pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Question:
    What do those of you who on the "Nay" side of this debate think about refering to George Saint Pierre (never wrestled in high school or college, but trained with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team and successfully outwrestled guys like Koscheck, Fitch, and Hughes) as a wrestler?
  9. battheo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2011 7:16pm


     Style: Shaolin, Goshin Jujitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Question:
    What do those of you who on the "Nay" side of this debate think about refering to George Saint Pierre (never wrestled in high school or college, but trained with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team and successfully outwrestled guys like Koscheck, Fitch, and Hughes) as a wrestler?
    Personally, I would not describe George St Pierre as a wrestler, because although he may have a PHENOMENAL skill set now based around wrestling, he has never wrestled competitively. I'm not saying he can't wrestle, or that he wouldn't do well in competition. I've heard it bandied around often that he's at an olympic level in the game.

    I guess, for me, it's a matter of language. The definition of 'wrestler' is one who wrestles. GSP doesn't wrestle competitively. And although his wrestling in MMA is fantastic, he doesn't rely solely on it... he uses techniques from other disciplines too.

    I know we could say that he fulfills the definition of wrestler because he does wrestle in MMA, but if that's the case, he's also a boxer, kick boxer, karateka, and jiu jitsu stylist. To me, it makes more sense to call him an MMA fighter, and to expand on that by saying he has a wrestling base, if necessary. But to call him a wrestler (in my eyes) is misleading, because it automatically implies that he has or does wrestle competitively in wrestling matches.

    I mean, I use hooks, jabs and crosses, but I'm sure as **** not a boxer.

    It's not so much what GSP is capable of, for me, as it is a case of what he does. Obviously, this is all semantics, and makes little difference to fight sports, but I'm a bit of a pedant.
  10. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2011 5:22am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by battheo View Post
    Personally, I would not describe George St Pierre as a wrestler, because although he may have a PHENOMENAL skill set now based around wrestling, he has never wrestled competitively. I'm not saying he can't wrestle, or that he wouldn't do well in competition. I've heard it bandied around often that he's at an olympic level in the game.... But to call him a wrestler (in my eyes) is misleading, because it automatically implies that he has or does wrestle competitively in wrestling matches.
    You premise is false, he has done freestyle competitions in the past. I know a guy who trained with him in Canada.

    Your quibble is ultimately a question of arbitrary semantics.
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