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  1. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2011 4:55pm

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     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Palm Strike Challenge

    This is an idea I've been kicking around for a while, but I was catalyzed to put into action by the "don't punch in a street fight" thread in YMAS.
    The idea that palm strikes are superior weapons to bare-knuckle punches seems to come up fairly often in self-defense rhetoric, and typically with little to no evidence to back it up.
    In order to put this rhetoric to the test, I'd like to set up some sparring sessions under the following rules:
    -3 2 minute rounds
    -Hands only
    -No gloves or wraps
    -In round one, fighter A will only be allowed to throw palm strikes, and Fighter B will only be allowed to throw punches. In round two, Fighter A will be punching, and Fighter B will be throwing palm strikes. In round three, they can switch between them as they see fit.
    Obviously, this would be a controlled contact sparring session, rather than a go for KO fight. My goal with this is to isolate (as best as can) the variable of fist vs palm when striking, and seeing how things play out in a live session instead of just talking about theoretical bruised knuckles. By having the fighters switch in the second round, we can hopefully isolate against the myriad other variables that go into a fight (height, weight, experience, etc.) and get a better picture of how hand-weapon affects the outcome of a fistfight. The whole thing would be recorded for youtube posterity, of course.
    If any bullies in the Seattle area are up for fighting for science (science!), let's set up a session. Additionally, I'd like to challenge any bullies in other regions to try set up slap-v-punch fights at throwdowns and such. And hopefully, we can actually get some real evidence on the matter of "never punch in str33t f1fght."
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  2. danno is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2011 9:47pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you could also work with data which is already out there, and you'll have a larger sample size.

    there have been quite a few pankration matches in the last couple of decades which only allowed palm strikes when attacking the face, and there have surely been others. find out what percentage of these bouts ended in knockout due to palm strikes.

    gather as much data as possible about bare-knuckle matches which allow closed fist punches to the face, and compare the knockout ratio to the palm strike knockout ratio.

    it would also be interesting to see how many broken hands resulted in both cases.

    then you could compare this to other sports which enforce gloves - MMA, boxing, kickboxing.

    this would be a pretty big undertaking though.
  3. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 2:53am

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     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    you could also work with data which is already out there, and you'll have a larger sample size.

    there have been quite a few pankration matches in the last couple of decades which only allowed palm strikes when attacking the face, and there have surely been others. find out what percentage of these bouts ended in knockout due to palm strikes.

    gather as much data as possible about bare-knuckle matches which allow closed fist punches to the face, and compare the knockout ratio to the palm strike knockout ratio.

    it would also be interesting to see how many broken hands resulted in both cases.

    then you could compare this to other sports which enforce gloves - MMA, boxing, kickboxing.

    this would be a pretty big undertaking though.
    Mmmm, you make a good point. I had dismissed Pancrase just because it was a case of palm strikes versus palm strikes, but I hadn't thought of analyzing it against data from, say, Rio Heroes. I might have to do just that.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  4. Gosai is online now

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 5:10am


     Style: Ju d'oh!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I'm pretty far out from Seattle but if any bullies are near the Fremont area (or perhaps Toledo) I'd be willing to set up some sparring under those rules for sweet magical science.

    'sides, I need to learn to stop flinching when people throw strikes at me anyway.
  5. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 6:00am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
    Mmmm, you make a good point. I had dismissed Pancrase just because it was a case of palm strikes versus palm strikes, but I hadn't thought of analyzing it against data from, say, Rio Heroes. I might have to do just that.
    how will you collect the data? if it's a big job you could rope in a few volunteers.

    eventually you could have a report where you look at the statistics and also discuss your own experiments.

    in any case, you should be able to do some interesting stuff whether you find sparring partners or not. reminds me of the graphs someone made about the most common submissions in MMA. was that ever submitted as an article? because it should be.
  6. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 10:29am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The basic premise is flawed. No one is advocating palm strikes TO THE BODY. Why would you limit the palm strike guy to palming body shots? I say let them throw anything they want to the body and only open hand to the head for the first round. Then if anyone wants a second round let them punch to the head. Though frankly, I'd never participate in the second round due to cutting.
  7. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 11:32am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seems to me that the test is actually introducing a lot more variables that'll serve to muddy things. Are both people actually trained to throw palm strikes? Seems like the individual would be such a deciding factor that you'd have to repeat it many, many times with new people to come to any conclusions. Can they kick and stuff? If so, then the palm strikes become less relevant, but if they can't isn't that also taking away from the reality of fighting? Are krotty chops counted as palm strikes?

    I'm interested in seeing if anything comes from this.
  8. Tetsumusha is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 3:44pm


     Style: Karate, w/ a side of judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is actually a really interesting idea to me, as well. I think that, in the end, it will be determined that punches hurt more for both parties involved but I don't think knockout effectiveness will be determined. Tagging this thread.
    Last edited by Tetsumusha; 11/15/2011 3:48pm at .
  9. kmh42 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 4:29pm


     Style: Kyokushin

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Would be interesting to see results, however for self defense the flaw is rules. When defending oneself there is no rules, no holding back on power of strikes. A solid shot by palm or fist can be equally effective.
  10. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 4:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bits and pieces

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This seems like a race to see who can break their hands/wrists first.

    P.S. must avoid the obvious "palming off" joke.
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