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  1. FinalLegion is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 2:18am

    supporting member
     Style: Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hello folks...some ninjutsu questions.

    Hello everyone. I'm a new member to Bullshido. It seems Bullshido is an excellent source for getting down to the truth about the martial arts...the claims, the histories, the people, etc., so I decided to join up =) My own martial arts background is rather limited...some lessons in aikido, kendo and some of the Northern Shaolin styles. I'm certainly no expert in any of this; heck, I think of myself as barely 'beginner'.

    Anyways, I've been giving serious thought about taking up ninjutsu as the few demonstrations I've seen have really intrigued...but I know there is a LOT of bull surrounding ninjutsu, so I thought I'd better ask people who know much better than I a few questions:

    -How can I make sure a school/instructor is actually giving instruction in ninjutsu?
    -Did "real" ninja of feudal Japan really wear those all black uniforms or is that something for us Westerners?
    -Is "ninja" actually the correct thing to call practitioners of ninjutsu or is it a made up term?
    -Does ninjutsu training emphasize all those amazing acrobatics we see in some demonstrations?
    -I've been told that the 'ninja-to' sword is a complete fiction and that the ninja actually used a sword with a square guard and a curved blade and that this sword was smaller than a katana but larger than a wakizashi. True?

    I know this is a lot right off the bat, but I really want to do this right. I sincerely appreciate any answers and guidance.
  2. bobyclumsyninja is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 2:32am

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     Style: Ex-Tiger KF, ex-SanDa

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Welcome to Bullshido. Feel free to create an intro thread in newbietown. I say this because ninja discussions get lively, and...well...I don't want you to get flamed.

    Were you to take Ninjutsu classes, you wouldn't be learning anything from feudal Japan. Compliant drills, pajamas, and deferring to people who claim to be too d3adly to spar, is probably not in your best interests, unless you want fun only, and not fighting prowess.

    The things you see in the demos, almost entirely will not work against a resisting opponent. That or they are impossible to time in an alive, non-compliant setting.

    I would advise watching the ninja demos on youtube again, but this time only watch the other guy (guy getting hit). Look at how he's reacting, and realize, the whole style is predicated on the assumption that after the 1st hit, they will freeze, allowing all the fancy stuff.

    Anyway, welcome to the site. Happy posting.
  3. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 2:44am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll start and you're not going to like it...sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    -How can I make sure a school/instructor is actually giving instruction in ninjutsu?
    ninjutsu is the art of concealment, so unless you learn to camouflage yourself or infiltrate into a group, you aren't learning ninjutsu.

    The hand to hand combat is called tai jutsu, which is basically just ju jutsu...but there's no actual art of tai jutsu. The ninjutsu was just a small part of techniques in the syllabus of (nowadays) Koryu ju jutsu schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    -Did "real" ninja of feudal Japan really wear those all black uniforms or is that something for us Westerners?
    No, the black uniforms come from Japanese puppet theater where the puppetplayers wore them. They don't make you invisible, just conveyed an air of invisibility to the audience (in Japanese puppet theater the players are walking around on the stage).

    The Samurai and Yamabushi wore full armer in battle, but dressed up in civilian clothes (peasent, fisherman, etc...) to spy on their rivals or payed real civilians for information gathering.


    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    -Is "ninja" actually the correct thing to call practitioners of ninjutsu or is it a made up term?
    Shinobi, which means "assasin". But ninja didn't exist, just Samurai and Yamabushi.


    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    -Does ninjutsu training emphasize all those amazing acrobatics we see in some demonstrations?
    No, unless you're LARPING. Most ninjutsu is just ju jutsu larping.



    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    -I've been told that the 'ninja-to' sword is a complete fiction and that the ninja actually used a sword with a square guard and a curved blade and that this sword was smaller than a katana but larger than a wakizashi. True?
    The ninjato was the original form of the katana, but after the first attempt of the Mongolians to conquer Japan, they found out that this katana form broke easely against the swords used by the Mongolians, so the shape was adapted to become more curved.
    Since "ninja" were just Samurai and Yamabushi, the swords of the "ninja" changed when the swords of the Samurai changed.


    This is all info in a nutshell, if you use the search function, you will find much more detailed information and remember that google is your friend.

    Do Judo and be more effective than modern day "ninja".
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  4. FinalLegion is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 2:54am

    supporting member
     Style: Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What about the Bujinkan? I've often heard that legit training in what we Westerners call "ninjutsu" occurs...but it's actually Taijutsu, right? Isn't there supposed to be something like 15 or 16 different kyu to learn within Bujinkan Taijitsu?

    So Taijitsu is really just Japanese jujitsu? That was something totally unknown to me.

    Another thing I don't get...if the historical shinobi (ninja) were just samurai and yamabushi, was there ever time when they were a totally separate entity, i.e., shinobi that were shinobi alone and neither samurai nor yamabushi?
  5. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 3:17am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are a few hunderd threads here discussing the legitiemity of the Bujinkan.
    short version: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is not legit, from the 15 ryu that Hatsumi claims to have inherited, a few have been proven to be made up completely and others are just basic ju jutsu (trained by using dead drills).

    No, the feudal Japan had a very rigid structure with the Samurai being the only class to wear weapons. With as only exception the Yamabushi, who were clans of weaponed mountainpeople, yet they employed same tactics and weapons as the Samurai.

    A lot of times the Yamabushi were hired by the Samurai for warfare. Now the Yamabushi lived in the mountainess regios of Koga and Iga, but they were not ninja, just mercenairies.

    The ryu of the Yamabushi have dissapaired, I know that Hatsumi claims some rolls with their teaching/ninja teaching, but noone has ever seen those rolls and even if the koryo schools would have not been lost forever, they would look identical to the still existend Samurai Koryu schools, since Yamabushi used the same weapons, armor and tactics as the Samurai.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  6. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 6:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    Hello everyone. I'm a new member to Bullshido. It seems Bullshido is an excellent source for getting down to the truth about the martial arts...the claims, the histories, the people, etc., so I decided to join up =) My own martial arts background is rather limited...some lessons in aikido, kendo and some of the Northern Shaolin styles. I'm certainly no expert in any of this; heck, I think of myself as barely 'beginner'.
    Welcome.

    -How can I make sure a school/instructor is actually giving instruction in ninjutsu?
    Ninjutsu is a prime source of BULLSHIDO because it is ill defined even in Japan. Regardless the chances of learning actual feudal era ninjutsu is really zero to none.

    -Did "real" ninja of feudal Japan really wear those all black uniforms or is that something for us Westerners?
    No. The suits common associated with ninjas today actually came from the costumes NOH play hands wore to go unnoticed in the background as they worked on the sets while the actors performed.

    -Is "ninja" actually the correct thing to call practitioners of ninjutsu or is it a made up term?
    NINJA is a correct term but it is a more modern one. In the past people who were considered ninja went by names such as rappa, suppa, and kusa.
    -Does ninjutsu training emphasize all those amazing acrobatics we see in some demonstrations?
    Not really. Yes taihenjutsu has many acrobatic elements but if you think you will be flipping, cartwheeling, and ninja rolling in a fight you will be in for a rude awakening.

    -I've been told that the 'ninja-to' sword is a complete fiction and that the ninja actually used a sword with a square guard and a curved blade and that this sword was smaller than a katana but larger than a wakizashi. True?
    True the ninjato was made for entertainment to show the distinction between samurai (generally the hero) and ninja (generally the bad guy) sort of like white and black hats for westerns. However ninjas became much cooler.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 6:34am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FinalLegion View Post
    What about the Bujinkan? I've often heard that legit training in what we Westerners call "ninjutsu" occurs...but it's actually Taijutsu, right? Isn't there supposed to be something like 15 or 16 different kyu to learn within Bujinkan Taijitsu?
    The Bujinkan generally claims 9 schools. Of those schools only 3 are supposedly ninjutsu, and one of those is highly questionable because the same school has been listed as a jujutsu school with no mention of ninjutsu. However most of the Bujinkan training comes mainly 3 schools (Koto Ryu koppojutsu, Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu, and Kukishinden Ryu) These are all legit schools but are not ninjutsu. I could go deeper into this and bring up some issues among other students of Takamatsu and the Bujinkan but that would take awhile.

    So Taijitsu is really just Japanese jujitsu? That was something totally unknown to me.
    Taijutsu (lit. Body method/skill) is a generic blanket term and can be used as another name for a Jujutsu school.
    Another thing I don't get...if the historical shinobi (ninja) were just samurai and yamabushi, was there ever time when they were a totally separate entity, i.e., shinobi that were shinobi alone and neither samurai nor yamabushi?
    This is the "ill defined" part I was talking about earlier. Many "ninja" were indeed samurai. The 3 classic texts on ninjutsu (Basenshukai, Ninpiden, and Shoninki) were written by samurai. Several of the skills attributed to ninjas, such as recon, espionage, camoflauge, were also taught in part by different samurai schools. There were splinter groups that exist. These came from ronin raising a guerilla army or a group of people forming a militia. But whole secret ninja village thing is more fairytale than fact.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  8. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 6:39am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    -I've been told that the 'ninja-to' sword is a complete fiction and that the ninja actually used a sword with a square guard and a curved blade and that this sword was smaller than a katana but larger than a wakizashi. True?
    True the ninjato was made for entertainment to show the distinction between samurai (generally the hero) and ninja (generally the bad guy) sort of like white and black hats for westerns. However ninjas became much cooler.
    So the ninjato and the chokuto aren't the same? Thanks, learned something new.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  9. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 8:23am


     Style: Striking, grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    even inside the bujinkan, many people question a lot of the ninjaness. now it's often referred to as a state of mind in techniques, where one hides his intentions, whatever you may think of that.
    may I also propose this thread where I get my ass handed to me. It quite convincingly argues the impracticality of Bujinkan taijutsu.
    Last edited by ashkelon; 9/23/2011 8:25am at . Reason: grammar
  10. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2011 9:23am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not particularly relevant, but I thought the costume currently associated with Ninjutsu as displayed by the Bujinkan may have originated with Bunraku theater, where the pupper manipulators were swathed in black similar to Kabuki... not that it matters in the long run.

    (not sure if they wore tabi though)

    =================
    Kama Sutra blue belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    I used to **** guys like you in prison.
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    Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

    Dipshit
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