My theory on Tradional Martial Arts and today.

**kelvis** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 4:30pm

I was drinking my beer, and reading the normal arguments on this forum, and thinking of my own limited experience, and a question came to mind. How is it possible for the TMA to be so ridiculously worthless to the majority in this day and age, but yet they persevered for centuries? Is it possible that maybe the training is flawed? I can understand that over time things can change and get better, but don't you think that somewhere along the line someone would've figured that out before now? Could it be that the endless techniques in the kata actually contain some logic? I think of Kung Fu, Taekwondo, Hwarang do, Shotokan, Shorei Ryu, Goju Ryu, and the ridicule that it faces here in Bullshido and elsewhere, and then I think of all the years that people have practiced these arts, and how it somehow must have worked against real enemies at some point.
I have seen how these so called practitioners learn the kata and techniques, yet fail to apply them when it's sparring time. What would happen if folks actually applied these techniques to practice and non compliant sparring? Could someone actually learn something useful? Has anyone actually tried it? It seems to me that most TMA practitioners learn the techniques, and then spar kickboxing afterwards. Kind of defeats the purpose of learning the deadly doesn't it?
I would really like to hear some intelligent dialogue in regards to this. That last part I wrote about the sparring is really what I'm getting at.
Ok. FLAME ON!

**Vorpal** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 4:53pm

TMAs? Judo, wrestling,boxing and Muay Thai?

**kelvis** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 5:01pm

Originally Posted by Vorpal

TMAs? Judo, wrestling,boxing and Muay Thai?

No, more like Karate, Kung Fu, Hwarang do, ect... I'm really talking about the old school martial arts. I really think that they must have trained a lot differently than they do now. It had to have been a lot harder.

**CrackFox** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 5:07pm

Which styles of kung fu and karate. Judo and BJJ are probably older than most of those styles. Definitely older than HWD.

**Ming Loyalist** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 5:13pm

as recently as 1990 people in my lineage of kung fu used to do hard sparring with no safety gear, no gloves, etc, and not surprisingly anyone i've met who trained it in those days is able to fight pretty well.

**CrackFox** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 5:17pm

Anyway, regardless of what style you do or where it comes from, the western idea of "martial arts" comes from Japanese budo. Budo is the way of the warrior - which is different from bujutsu - the techniques of a warrior. To follow budo is to improve yourself by living like a samurai of old. In other words, to larp.

Martial arts, traditional or otherwise, has always been about lapping. Learn to deal with it.

**TheMightyMcClaw** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 5:18pm

The problem is that you're assuming traditional martial arts are old. Aikido, Ninjutsu, and most systems of jujutsu you'll encounter are also post-Meiji restoration innovations. Most all Korean martial arts are post-world war 2 creations. Really, it's kind of hard to find a martial that goes back for much more than a century.
For those older systems that seem to suck a lot, I'd like you to look at centuries-old medical practices, and tell me your opinion of them. People were practicing bloodletting and exorcisms for centuries, but that doesn't mean they worked.

**Lonestar** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 5:55pm

Isn't sparring a comparatively recent invention as well? Padded gloves haven't always been around. The old gong fu practitioners that you are thinking of did not have the option of hard sparring.

**kelvis** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 5:59pm

Good answers so far. The point, as I've already pointed out, is that people who CURRENTLY train in what is considered Traditional Martial Arts obviously are missing the boat compared to those who train in MMA style. I actually did some training in American Kenpo. There are so many techniques to that style that it will make you go crazy trying to remember them, but in theory, they make sense. At the same time though, they spar using kickboxing methods, and they train techniques for belt levels. That is the point. What purpose does it serve to train techniques if you don't practice them in an alive fashion. I think that originally it was trained a lot harder and therefore useful. I don't think that larping was the goal.
I chose to try use what I consider older martial arts as an example because they were obviously developed for fighting purposes. @ TheMightyMcClaw, I am assuming that there are martial arts that are very old and can be dated a few centuries ago. The question I posed is about training within the TMA specifically older ones, and how it was at it's origins as compared to now. Obviously many have evolved.

To those already in the know, I have watched the Matrix, Enter the Dragon, and all of Big Poppa Steven Seagal's movies, and now I will share that I watched an entire Chuck Norris Marathon, and lived. Learning to deal with "larping" it isn't something I feel I need to "learn", just a serious question in the history of Martial Arts and the way they are perceived in today's arena.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 5/24/2011 6:03pm

Originally Posted by Lonestar

Isn't sparring a comparatively recent invention as well?

No.

Padded gloves haven't always been around. The old gong fu practitioners that you are thinking of did not have the option of hard sparring.

Yes, they did. They competed in full contact events, engaged in challenge matches, did weight lifting, etc etc etc. There is enough historical evidence out there to refute what you just asserted.

Originally Posted by Kelviis

Old argument

I always like the " hey guys I just realized after reading arguments" and then we get the same MMA is great TMA is old thread.