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  1. thedude897 is offline

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    Mar 2011
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    1

    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 11:38am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Santa Barbara, CA: Paragon billing dispute.

    I first joined Paragon in the summer of 2009 in hopes of learning how to defend myself and meet some new people. In that respect, I cannot say that I was disappointed.

    I trained on a schedule through school and worked extra to make the huge payments ($140/month). I learned how to manage my time and work hard.

    Nonetheless, after completely fulfilling my contract (well beyond the 1 year mark), I am facing financial trouble with student debt and the tough economy. I decided it was time to slim down on everything, including my hobby.

    The management at Paragon has no interest in your financial situation or personal troubles. I found this out the hard way when I canceled my membership. I was told to "man up", "figure it out", and "keep training" in an attempt to keep me from canceling. When I pushed further, putting in my notice a couple days shy of the 30 day mark, they billed me although I had fulfilled my obligation, moved to another town, and hadn't touched their mats in 2 months.

    This has been the worst customer service I have every experienced. They will fight you tooth and nail for dollars you do not owe. If you try to have a conversation with them, it will quickly escalate and end with some macho antagonization.

    Train somewhere else and avoid the headaches.
  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 3:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by thedude897 View Post
    When I pushed further, putting in my notice a couple days shy of the 30 day mark, they billed me although I had fulfilled my obligation ...
    Ah.... no.


    According to what you wrote, your obligation included giving them 30 days notice. That is what you agreed to: that was your obligation, too. They might be dicks for other reasons and specifically for not cutting you some slack, but you're an asshole for blaming them for your mistake. Assholes get fucked by dicks.

    They should give you a break because .... why? Because it's in your interest to not pay a legitimate bill? **** that. Businesses are not in the habit of making deals when dunning customers who clearly won't be coming back no matter what they do.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 3/16/2011 3:10pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  3. King Sleepless is offline
    King Sleepless's Avatar

    I am a living legend!

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 5:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Ah.... no.


    According to what you wrote, your obligation included giving them 30 days notice. That is what you agreed to: that was your obligation, too. They might be dicks for other reasons and specifically for not cutting you some slack, but you're an asshole for blaming them for your mistake. Assholes get fucked by dicks.

    They should give you a break because .... why? Because it's in your interest to not pay a legitimate bill? **** that. Businesses are not in the habit of making deals when dunning customers who clearly won't be coming back no matter what they do.
    A good business man would let the debtor pay as much as they can with what they have rather than push for **** they don't have. The debtor will then have higher praise of said services and may spread the word of said business and bring in better business.

    It's bad practice to be a dick about collecting bills.
  4. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 5:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirc View Post
    A good business man would let the debtor pay as much as they can with what they have rather than push for **** they don't have. The debtor will then have higher praise of said services and may spread the word of said business and bring in better business.

    It's bad practice to be a dick about collecting bills.
    He paid the whole amount. Obviously he had it. And sure, they are dicks. But he's an ass for agreeing to pay and then whining that he has to pay what he already agreed. His word is ****.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  5. Chimaira is offline

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    ATL
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    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 6:41pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I understand the situation correctly, you put in your 30 days notice and then got billed during that period. If that is so, then it worked exactly as it was supposed to. Your membership effectively terminates 30 days after you put in your notice, so it is pretty much guaranteed that a billing date will occur in those 30 days, so you will get charged once. That's why gyms put in a 30 day notice as opposed to maybe 7 days notice so that they can get one more billing cycle out of you.

    If those provisions offend you, all you have to do is go somewhere else, or try to negotiate your contract.
  6. King Sleepless is offline
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    I am a living legend!

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 6:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yet somehow, my point is still not wrong.
  7. hungryjoe is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 8:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirc View Post
    A good business man would let the debtor pay as much as they can with what they have rather than push for **** they don't have. The debtor will then have higher praise of said services and may spread the word of said business and bring in better business.

    It's bad practice to be a dick about collecting bills.
    Yep

    After having signed a contract and attending classes for a couple of months, my employer moved the company to another state. I was not allowed out of the contract.

    My not paying out the contract hit my credit report. When I did move back to Oklahoma, I went to see the owner and agreed to pay $750 to absolve the debt. He let me know I could always come back and gave me an autographed copy of a magazine with him on the cover.

    I used the magazine to house train a puppy.

    Now, nearly twenty years later, when asked about schools in the south Oklahoma City / Moore area, I always tell people the story. It's probably cost him some money.
  8. TaeBo_Master is offline
    TaeBo_Master's Avatar

    Certified Fitness Trainer

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    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
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    4,002

    Posted On:
    3/16/2011 9:04pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Ah.... no.


    According to what you wrote, your obligation included giving them 30 days notice. That is what you agreed to: that was your obligation, too. They might be dicks for other reasons and specifically for not cutting you some slack, but you're an asshole for blaming them for your mistake. Assholes get fucked by dicks.

    They should give you a break because .... why? Because it's in your interest to not pay a legitimate bill? **** that. Businesses are not in the habit of making deals when dunning customers who clearly won't be coming back no matter what they do.
    ^^^ This. Sure, it would be nice if they gave you a break, but they're not obligated to. You signed a contract, and both sides are obligated to their side. Of course they're going to urge you continue training, they're running a business and a good school. It's tough for martial arts schools to make any significant amount of profit as it is. Just ask any of the instructors on the board. Every student is valuable.

    It sounds like the OP's situation is unfortunate, but it doesn't sound like the school is engaging in shady practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedude897
    I trained on a schedule through school and worked extra to make the huge payments ($140/month). I learned how to manage my time and work hard.
    Perhaps nitpicking a little, but $140 a month is not outrageous for BJJ, especially in California, which tends to have higher costs for just about everything. This is not the poster's main complaint, I understand, but overall it does seem like things are about par for the course.

    I would like to hear Omega's perspective on this. I understand he has a familiar relationship with this school and its owners.
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  9. Team Python is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Indio, Ca.
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    316

    Posted On:
    3/17/2011 1:40am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a had few people lose their jobs and could not pay the remaining balance of their contract. I could be a dick about it and say too fucking bad but I don't. It is hard times for everybody so I don't trip. However the people I do give breaks to put the word out that I am a reasonable person so I tend to get a lot interests into the school which helps. I believe what goes around comes around. If you help people out they may one day return the favor which has happened a few times already. Also they return once they get back on their feet so I don't take it as a lost in the end.
  10. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Sherwood, OR
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    Posted On:
    3/17/2011 9:06am

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by thedude897 View Post
    I first joined Paragon in the summer of 2009 in hopes of learning how to defend myself and meet some new people. In that respect, I cannot say that I was disappointed.

    I trained on a schedule through school and worked extra to make the huge payments ($140/month). I learned how to manage my time and work hard.

    Nonetheless, after completely fulfilling my contract (well beyond the 1 year mark), I am facing financial trouble with student debt and the tough economy. I decided it was time to slim down on everything, including my hobby.

    The management at Paragon has no interest in your financial situation or personal troubles. I found this out the hard way when I canceled my membership. I was told to "man up", "figure it out", and "keep training" in an attempt to keep me from canceling. When I pushed further, putting in my notice a couple days shy of the 30 day mark, they billed me although I had fulfilled my obligation, moved to another town, and hadn't touched their mats in 2 months.

    This has been the worst customer service I have every experienced. They will fight you tooth and nail for dollars you do not owe. If you try to have a conversation with them, it will quickly escalate and end with some macho antagonization.

    Train somewhere else and avoid the headaches.
    So if I understand this right, you gave your 30 days notice 28 days before your next bill?

    As already mentioned, it's in your contract to give 30 days notice and if since you didn't do that, you received another bill. You signed the contract so you're bound by their cancellation policy, which isn't odd at all for a gym. Could they have been nice to you and not charged? Sure. Would it have been in their best interest? Nope.

    Hypothetical situation: Let's say that they decided to cut everyone a break from the 30 day cancellation policy and they have 20 people leave the gym in the year due to financial issues. At $140 a person that comes out to $2,800 of lost revenue. Do you have any idea how much it is to lease a building in Santa Barbara? It's a lot, and that extra income is needed if you want your business to survive during this hard economic time.

    It's also not fair to play favoritism; they have policies in place, everyone must adhere to them.
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