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  1. Flipper is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2010 11:03am


     Style: PTK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Sayoc Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Atienza Kali

    I've read a lot of threads here and on other forums re PTK and Sayoc Kali. I'm curious as to what the similarities and differences there are between Atienza Kali, PTK and Sayoc Kali. I teach PTK but have only seen Sayoc Kali and Atienza Kali on youtube. I'd like to here from those who have experienced training in all three systems or even two of them.

    No I'm not trying to judge which is better. Just wondering what these three systems have in common or not re their method of training, preferred ranges and weapons, emphasis, etc.

    There's a great thread here re Modern Arnis and PTK. So how about a similarly enlightening discussion on these three styles?
  2. Ammar is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2010 2:15pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ex PTK, currently boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heh, I first wiki'ed Sayoc Kali and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayoc_Kali

    Sayoc Kali is an edged weapon based style of Filipino Martial Arts. It is a family system, headed by Christopher Sayoc, Sr.. The motto of the style is, "All Blade, All the Time".
    The Sayoc family lineage links back to General Licerio Topacio, of Cavite. General Topacio was the military engineer of the Katipunan secret society. Known to be amongst the first Katipunan members to urge Supremo Andres Bonifacio to wage a revolution against Spain. [1]
    Sayoc Kali is taught as part of the more general Sayoc Fighting System, which includes sword, stick, tomahawk, karambit and whip. Sayoc Kali emphasizes the use of the blade. It includes techniques for single knife, multiple knives, projectiles, and secondary support to firearms. Empty hand training is under the Sayoc Silak curriculum.
    Sayoc Kali presents itself as an evolving system. The Sayoc family hosted a number of Filipino Martial Arts masters who travelled to the east coast of the United States during the 1970s and learned Filipino Martial Arts from them. Interaction and training from these Filipino Martial Arts masters gave the Sayoc family the idea of creating Sayoc Kali.
    Guro Dan Inosanto calls Sayoc Kali, "A highly evolved Filipino Martial Art".
    Sayoc Tactical Group is Sayoc Kali's military and law enforcement division.
    Sayoc Combat Choreography represents Sayoc Kali's entertainment and film division. SCC has choreographed fight scenes for films such as The Hunted and Confessions of a Dangerous Mind.
    Sayoc Silak is the non-edged weapon curriculum.
    Sayoc Kali is headed by Christopher Sayoc, Sr. His father, former corrections officer and head of the Sayoc system Baltazar "Bo" Sayoc, retired from full time martial arts teaching in the late 90's. Tatang Bo Sayoc died on January 2007. Master Level Sayoc instructors with over twenty years experience respectively are Roberto Torres, Felix Cortes, Raymond Dionaldo, Rafael Kayanan, Ricardo Kayanan and Thomas Kier.
    Many Sayoc instructors also have respective systems of their own encompassing a wide range of influences, disciplines and arts.
    Then I clicked on one of the external links that says "description of Sayoc Kali" and this was the first description that popped up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...&defid=2330205

    rip-off of Pekiti Tirsia Kali, and other styles of Filipino Martial Arts (FMA).

    Made up by the Sayocs to cash in on the interest in FMA. This system is interesting only to those who are new to FMA and are clueless about the history of the Sayocs.

    Claims to be "all blade all the time"but it's more like "all money all the time". Expensive DVDs that teach "knife fighting" to teenagers and those who want to pretend their badasses LOL. Claims to be effective but is actually based on confusing and complicated templates that will naturally be forgotten in the heat of a real knife fight.

    It's not really FMA, because its not from the Philippines. It was made up in the Sayoc's Tae Kwon Do club in the US.

    If you're interested in knife fighting, you're better off learning it from Pekiti, Illustrisimo or any of the other true FMAs.

    (oh by the way, some of the Sayoc's deluded keyboard warriors will try to delete this soon hehehehe.)
    Could be a troll. From the little I've seen of Sayoc Kali it's looked pretty good.

    Atienza Kali seems to focus alot on multiple opponents, and I've even seen some vids where they dwelve into archery and throwing knives. Other than that, I don't know.

    Check out this thread from some background info on AK from one of the founders of the art himself (nick: Two Sword) http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...t=18525&page=2
  3. Ammar is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2010 2:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ex PTK, currently boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, and here's some info on PTK from the official European association's webpage:

    http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/aboutPT...n&file=aboutPT
  4. Daggermouth is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2010 4:02pm


     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wonder how legit Sayoc Kali is. I wonder how much training their instructors have to go through to be certified. A place called Elite opened up in my town and they have an hour or so block a few times a week teaching Sayoc Kali. I wasn't sure what Sayoc was. I've been training for alllllmost two years with Guros under Tuhon Ruby of the United States Kali Association Incorporated. She's based out of El Paso and I can't wait to meet her.
  5. C.E.G is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 5:39pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As with most of the Filipino systems, there is a lot of overlap in the techniques and drills between PTK, Sayoc, and Atienza. Business practices aside, as well as teaching methodology and attitude, there is a lot of interesting material in the Sayoc system and it's worth taking a look at. Will it be some grand revelation that will greatly enhance your PTK blade work? Not likely. But it might open some new lines of thought.
  6. Wavemaninawe is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 7:30pm


     Style: mostly FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have trained some in Sayoc and am currently going through bits n' pieces of Atienza. I heare that they cross train quite often and they definitely share a common flavor. AK market themselves more with their mass attack scenario training but SK do it similarly. I've only tried PTK during one class so I can't comment on it or any similarities to the two other systems.

    My impression so far is that it's very high quality material but very, very, very detailed and I can understand how that can put people off before they look past face value. There are billions of sequences and drills that evolve from each other (drill 2 defeats drill 1, drill 3 defeats drill 2 etc.) and it's pretty confusing. I can honestly say that I don't remember half of the drills we have covered. On the flip-side I learned to apply the material quickly, even though I don't necessarily remember it in sequence.

    I went into a nightmare of pattern manuals and came out with a set of reflexes that work very smoothly in sparring & free flow drills as well as cover a lot of ground regarding blades.

    SK and AK definitely have the most detailed curriculum on edged weapons I've seen to date. It's a lot of complex material but I think the effort to study it pays off well. These guys claim to train to counter trained knifers, so it makes sense that they would delve deeper than the average. What I particularly like about them is their tag-team training... working on coordinated fighting in numbers. I'd like to see more of that in other styles.



    My one complaint is that it's a very costly affair. High rates and expensive gear.
    Last edited by Wavemaninawe; 8/01/2010 7:36pm at .
  7. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/31/2011 12:40am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wavemaninawe View Post
    I have trained some in Sayoc and am currently going through bits n' pieces of Atienza. I heare that they cross train quite often and they definitely share a common flavor. AK market themselves more with their mass attack scenario training but SK do it similarly. I've only tried PTK during one class so I can't comment on it or any similarities to the two other systems.

    My impression so far is that it's very high quality material but very, very, very detailed and I can understand how that can put people off before they look past face value. There are billions of sequences and drills that evolve from each other (drill 2 defeats drill 1, drill 3 defeats drill 2 etc.) and it's pretty confusing. I can honestly say that I don't remember half of the drills we have covered. On the flip-side I learned to apply the material quickly, even though I don't necessarily remember it in sequence.

    I went into a nightmare of pattern manuals and came out with a set of reflexes that work very smoothly in sparring & free flow drills as well as cover a lot of ground regarding blades.

    SK and AK definitely have the most detailed curriculum on edged weapons I've seen to date. It's a lot of complex material but I think the effort to study it pays off well. These guys claim to train to counter trained knifers, so it makes sense that they would delve deeper than the average. What I particularly like about them is their tag-team training... working on coordinated fighting in numbers. I'd like to see more of that in other styles.



    My one complaint is that it's a very costly affair. High rates and expensive gear.

    You wont do a minute of knife sparring.......don't waist your money. I know guys that have waisted hundreds of dollars and come to find out that they can't use the stuff they learned while knife sparring with someone that knows what they are doing.
  8. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2011 11:11am


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    You wont do a minute of knife sparring.......don't waist your money. I know guys that have waisted hundreds of dollars and come to find out that they can't use the stuff they learned while knife sparring with someone that knows what they are doing.

    Did you just revive a *dead thread* to say that just because someone spent a few hundred bucks on seminars or classes that they can't "knife spar" with "someone that knows what they are doing"?

    Let me follow this logic.

    I see you practice BJJ.
    So if a purple belt from another BJJ school choked out a White Belt in your school...

    Do you believe your BJJ school is now a "waist" of money?

    Do you believe that an experienced Black Belt is equal to your white belts/blue belts, etc?

    How about one of your school's better BJJ students ("someone that knows what they are doing") ... are they capable of tapping out someone who learned a few drills at one of your BJJ seminars?

    If you do NOT believe this, and I'm hedging that you do not then:

    Why revive a dead thread with that kind of response?


    I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can absorb that this is NOT a knock on BJJ, we train lots of BJJ instructors and students. Many Sayoc instructors train BJJ.

    Regards.
  9. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 1:35am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmet View Post
    Did you just revive a *dead thread* to say that just because someone spent a few hundred bucks on seminars or classes that they can't "knife spar" with "someone that knows what they are doing"?

    Let me follow this logic.

    I see you practice BJJ.
    So if a purple belt from another BJJ school choked out a White Belt in your school...

    Do you believe your BJJ school is now a "waist" of money?

    Do you believe that an experienced Black Belt is equal to your white belts/blue belts, etc?

    How about one of your school's better BJJ students ("someone that knows what they are doing") ... are they capable of tapping out someone who learned a few drills at one of your BJJ seminars?

    If you do NOT believe this, and I'm hedging that you do not then:

    Why revive a dead thread with that kind of response?


    I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can absorb that this is NOT a knock on BJJ, we train lots of BJJ instructors and students. Many Sayoc instructors train BJJ.

    Regards.
    First of all I have trained in other arts other than BJJ including several FMA's. Now instead of writing your long response all you had to say is that you guys in Sayoc Kali do knife spar and that I am wrong but since you did not mention one word about sparring then I must be right. So to clear things up.....do you or do you not include knife sparring in your training? Do you or do you not spend lots of money on your training and seminars?....just curious to see if the guys I talked to were lying to me or were they telling me the truth.
    Last edited by Team Python; 2/03/2011 1:50am at .
  10. Pat Pintados is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 2:22am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you are not sparring you are not training in my books.

    When flashy complicated close quarters knife tapping drills are practiced to excess, and have little practice/bearing in non-compliant situations, they are demonstration masturbation. I guess those drills make people think they are getting their money's worth and they are the baddest hombre in the barrio.

    I feel it's better to teach simple blocks of principles (angle X vs angle Y, zone out to this area to reach this target), and try to apply them under pressure when the situation arises in sparring. "Situational not systematic". I feel that way because show business goes out the window under the stress of real confrontation.

    You see in most skilled knife sparring very little functional tapping, as opposed to long range stop cutting or bait/feint attacks.
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