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  1. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 12:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Kickboxing bag work Vs. Xingyi forms

    Ok, so I've been training in kickboxing for years and recently started training in Kungfu. The styles are Tai Chi, Xing Yi, and San Da. I've been going for about 4 months now. We have done the 5 elements and some of the animal forms. We do some compliant drills and some drills that are a little less than sparring. I have no issues with those. The problem is that we spend so much time doing these Xing Yi forms. I see the benefit of learning the form, but we don't do any bag work or focus mits.

    I feel like I got more out of the bag work that I did when I used to do kickboxing than I do out of the forms. When doing these forms, you don't get to hit anything. You don't get to practice distancing, moving around the target, and punching various striking points.

    Instead, I am learning to punch one particular spot, move my body with perfect foot positioning, body alignment, and fist angle.

    I find myself constantly thinking how glad I am that I learned kickboxing first, that way I would know how to fight before I started this training.

    It is hard for me to understand how someone would think this is a more effective way to learn how to fight, rather than bag work, focus mits, and sparring.
    Last edited by jnp; 8/01/2010 3:53pm at . Reason: OP title change request
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  2. Soldiermedic is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 12:56pm


     Style: bjj/judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The attitude I was always taught to have about kata was that it was more of a kind of moving meditation more than anything. I think that its useful for muscle memory and it can be a good part of curriculum but you have to have it balance with sparring and bagwork
  3. HereBeADragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 1:04pm


     Style: Limalama, Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most TMA instructors don't have a lot of experience with equipment like focus mits or there proper use unless they have cross trained in an art like kickboxing and even then it takes a bit of work to figure out how to transfer the techniques from forms to mits. Even heavy bags when used are not really utilized to there best effect. If your just starting out in Kung Fu than its not a terrible thing to be working on forms for now but if you really are missing the bags and mits than do them at home after class and be sure to ask you teacher about them if you haven't already.
  4. atomicpoet is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 1:05pm


     Style: Western Boxing, Tai Chi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is a good point, especially concerning Xingyi. In fact, this is why I decided to learn good old fashioned Western boxing before taking up Xingyi.

    With that said, I wonder how you could apply Taijiquan to bagwork. The discipline isn't really known for its direct force, so I don't know how you could apply it to bagwork and focus mitts.
  5. JudOWNED is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 1:12pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't think of a single reason that people give for practicing kata* (other than cultural or spiritual reasons) that isn't better accomplished through other means. There's better ways to get in shape, gain strength, memorize techniques, practice techniques realisiticall and generally get better at fighting than forms.




    *I am here defining kata as solo routines where the movements and techniques have little similarity to actual fighting. 2-man kata, such as in Judo where you practice throws the same way you actually do them in randori, minus the resistance, aren't really "kata" in the modern vernacular sense of the word.
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 1:14pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I tried to do the 5 elements on the bag, but never had very good results with it. I asked my teachers how to do it, and I was told that it would be hard to do Xingyi forms on the bag.

    So I have started keeping up with the kickboxing on the heavy bag. I wasn't sure if it was a good idea, because I didn't want to create bad or alternate muscle memory.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  7. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 1:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    Instead, I am learning to punch one particular spot, move my body with perfect foot positioning, body alignment, and fist angle.
    Holy dead horse, but you answered your own question.

    I never learned anything about fighting from kata, but it gave me good posture, balance, the ability to whip my hips from any position into a strike, how to pivot smoothly, and a sense of where my bodyweight is at all times (do I want to be light on the ball, do I want to root myself, do I want to sink my hips, am I 50-50/70-30/30-70/10-90, etc. etc.) and my foot position, which are all useful.

    Furthermore this sense of body awareness carries over to things like padwork and drilling. I may not be perfect, but I can tell when even the tiniest detail is out of place and thus start correcting myself.

    It is hard for me to understand how someone would think this is a more effective way to learn how to fight, rather than bag work, focus mits, and sparring.
    The famous mantra in Karate says "kata, basics, sparring" not "kata instead of basics & sparring."

    That being said, I don't really care if people practice kata. Most people don't stretch at home either and manage to get by.

    A lot of TMA tends to be form-heavy at first and get less so at an advanced level (yes I think it should be the opposite, but nm that). Most people in any art don't make it past beginner level, so they can only comment about what they know/have experienced which is mostly forms...
  8. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 1:39pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not bashing forms. I love Tai Chi and get a lot out of it. I'm mostly talking about the relationship to Xingyi forms. There are a lot of threads about how good Xingyi is I've been reading them throughout the week. I just don't think it is as good as some quality bag work.

    I know for example that IIF has done Xingyi WAY longer than I have. Matter of fact he has done it longer than I've done all of my martial arts, which is about 10 years. So maybe he can correct me. But he said a lot about Xingyi and boxing being similar, and I can see some of that. But if all things are equal, I think boxing (kickboxing for me) does a better job of getting you there quicker.

    It feels like it would take me years of Xingyi to learn what it took a few months to learn in boxing. And the main difference in training is the forms vs bag work and focus mits.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  9. Scientific is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 2:14pm

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     Style: Scientific freestyle

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudOWNED View Post
    I can't think of a single reason that people give for practicing kata* (other than cultural or spiritual reasons) that isn't better accomplished through other means. There's better ways to get in shape, gain strength, memorize techniques, practice techniques realisiticall and generally get better at fighting than forms.
    I can define TMA in two words: CULT-MENTALITY.

    The glorification of kata is the heart of Bullshido; i.e. they take something crude and primitive, that was simply used as the cheapest method by which a third-world military dictatorship taught H2H combat to legions of illiterate superstitious soldiers, hundreds or thousands of years ago-- and so it became essentially caveman "warrior-rituals--" and these TMA cultists think they've freaking discovered The Ark of the Covenant, i.e. some type of magical Indiana-Jones "lost magical religious-secret'" that exceeds all modern weapons including the H-bomb, just like in the movies.

    Hell, you should see the crap that these clueless internet Seagal-fanwankers spew about aikido, because they say "it was designed for war" Yeah, so were the lance, pike and plate armor, but gimme a little bitty .22 pistol anyday against that.

    But still, the anti-scientific TMA-cultists go on swilling the kool-aid and chanting the mantra's about how TMA is better than all modern MMA because it's based on "ancient Chinese secret!" but that these Calgon-techniques are "too dangerous to test" (again like the Ark of the Covenant in Indiana Jones is too dangerous to open--when in REALITY, it was just a sort of portable Vatican-in-a-box used by Jews who were lost in the desert for 40 years because Moses wouldn't ask for directions).

    In short, TMA's like any cult: i.e. it's a conceit by losers in denial-- including pretend-guru "masters" who pretend to have some great secret, and peer-approval by fellow losers and cultists... both of which are more addictive to losers than crack-cocaine.

    And so they sail off into cult fantasy-land, where a "chi-strike" can destroy an M-1 tank.

    (CLOSE YOUR EYES! DON'T LOOK, IT'LL DESTROY YOU! :-D

    Whatever you think about Penn & Teller, you have to admit they nailed it with regard to TMA-losers, except for expressly naming it as a cult.
    Last edited by Scientific; 8/01/2010 2:47pm at .
  10. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2010 2:21pm

    Join us... or die
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scientific View Post
    The glorification of kata is the heart of bullshido; i.e. they take something crude and obsolete that was simply used as the cheapest method to teach combat to legions of illiterate soldiers hundreds in third-world countries hundreds of years ago,
    O RLY
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