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  1. iopyud is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 6:42am


     Style: MT/Ex-Judo NO SPRAWL?!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    JKA Shotokan vs. Knives (No wait! Humour me a bit)

    "Theoretically" speaking.

    Wouldn't it be better to use a strategy similar to Shotokan's hit-and run style rather than grabbing people's wrist against armed attackers?
    (At least, JKA-level Shotokan Reverse Punch Sucker Punch, not Krotty block-tap)

    Yeah, I know they don't come out in front of you, take a stance, and take one step forward before stabbing your tummy or swinging a blunt object in a vertical manner for you to simply sidestep or something...
    -Let's take that thing out for now for discussion's sake.

    It seems to me that it's easier to either knock them out or hit them with a really painful strike or throw and GTFO of the scene than waiting for them to attack and try to catch the attacker's wrist.

    TL;DR: I'm talking about sucker punching the attacker. Doesn't have to be Shotokan. Could be boxing or w/e.

    I'm not making a statement, I'm actually asking a question. Any thoughts?
  2. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 7:08am


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To a certain degree it is asking "what would be the best thing to do if somone punches you?"

    but other than that sort of yeah I agree with you.

    In fact you could even go towards saying that the Karate style block is better for stopping a knife than a sports fighters block.

    The issue you have striking at a knife attacker is that if they dont fall unconsious or dead thay can stab you which is why the whole wrist grab thing is in vogue.

    From there I could go into all sorts of conviluted scenarios as to what I think you should do next but what you suggest is a viable tactic.

    Just dont screw it up.
  3. Mtripp is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 7:44am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, the problem with your concept is that it assumes a few things not in evidence.

    1. That there is an effective way to strike someone with confidence that a single blow is going to end the situation. This simply is not the case.

    2. The "anti-sport" thing is just silly. The standard "blocks" are really not blocks at all, and are worthless in preventing a knife attack. We know this because they are worthless in stopping a punch.

    3. IF there is time to get your feet set and deliver a solid punch and kick, there was time to run away. Sadly there will almost never be that time, ergo you need a way to deal with this that does not require body position or a set position to defend yourself.

    As such, controlling the knife arm must always be the first step, IF, you can't run away.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  4. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 8:06am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    As such, controlling the knife arm must always be the first step, IF, you can't run away.
    QFT

    The Boxer's Gambit is a bad, bad idea when facing a knife. The knifer has everything that the puncher has, plus the ability to cause lethal stabbing damage with just arm-punching - something that would just be annoying to be hit with otherwise.

    As such, that advantage (plus the ability to cut with no wind-up necessary) absolutely must be taken away from the knifer as early as possible if the puncher has any hope of getting away intact.
  5. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 8:17am


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    Well, the problem with your concept is that it assumes a few things not in evidence.

    1. That there is an effective way to strike someone with confidence that a single blow is going to end the situation. This simply is not the case.


    I2. The "anti-sport" thing is just silly. The standard "blocks" are really not blocks at all, and are worthless in preventing a knife attack. We know this because they are worthless in stopping a punch.



    3. IF there is time to get your feet set and deliver a solid punch and kick, there was time to run away. Sadly there will almost never be that time,



    ergo you need a way to deal with this that does not require body position or a set position to defend yourself.

    As such, controlling the knife arm must always be the first step, IF, you can't run away.
    1. said that too

    2. How do we know that? I never knew that. And are you suggesting that catching an arm is easier than Karate blocking it?

    3. I am again conconfused how you made that conclusion. And how you know there will almost never be time.

    I would have thought every defence needs a body position or set position to work.
  6. Mtripp is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 8:27am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    <<<2. How do we know that? I never knew that. And are you suggesting that catching an arm is easier than Karate blocking it?>>>

    We know that because A) they simply do NOT work when trying to stop a punch, and B) when you study and research you learn those "blocks" are actually ways to break clothing grabs.

    I suggest nothing. I say that in full power, real time, hard core drilling NONE OF THEM are easy; BUT only one works. Karate blocking it will result is getting cut and killed with no chance of success.

    <<<I am again conconfused how you made that conclusion. And how you know there will almost never be time.>>>

    Well, the context of a real world violent assault is that it is not a duel. The person is not going to announce his intent, as such you will not be able to get "set." When you add the "crouching reflex" to the "fight or flight" response, most self-defense ideas fall apart very quickly. I know that from my experience and my interviews of people who deal with real world violence daily.

    <<<I would have thought every defence needs a body position or set position to work.>>>

    Only the ones that are made up bull crap taught in the average McDojo across the world. Might want to spend some time reading about why Fairbairn taught everyone to shoot from a crouch to understand the problem.
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC
  7. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 10:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Karate blocking it will result is getting cut and killed with no chance of success."

    This reminds me of the ma site that has videos of techniques and people were posting these front kicks and saying how much better they were than those stiff clunky karate kicks (that only work in kiddie karate klass kompetition) and I got on and posted about what a bunch of bs this was. A bunch of people who aren't bbs in karate are bs'ing about karate kicks being ineffective compared to the amazing wonderful kicking techniques that have come from MMA competitions and such - the thing is, in my rather average American eclectic karate style class at that time we were doing all the closing distance with stepping/sliding/hopping / hip thrusting / posturing / striking inward/forward (not upward) with ball of foot stuff that they were praising and saying that karate lacked. All the innovative kicking techniques were taught in a somewhat mediocre American eclectic style and in Kyokushin all the "advanced techniques that actually work, unlike karate kicks" were drilled from day one.

    All too often karate seems to mean shitty techniques and that isn't fair or reasonable.

    Yes, strip mall **** schools have shitty kicks and shitty knife defenses. But please remember that decent schools tend to teach decent techniques. Good schools fight hard, be it bare handed or with weapons.

    Karate Instructor Patrick Smith (Chirioku) of Logan UT is also belted in Judo and also wrestles etc etc and Shihan Hirano (Wado) of Honolulu is also belted in Judo etc etc etc. Traditionally it was expected that karate bbs should pick up at least a shodan in Judo or JJ to broaden their art.

    In my experience the best knife defenses were in Kajukenbo (after all, Joe Emperado was knifed to death outside their dojo) and of course they have Judo and JJ lineage. Mostly flank/block with arm/hand control then **** 'em up with joint injuries and about 20 strikes. And in Kyukushin where Sensei would just punch the attacker (exploding palm heel to forehead; knife guy knocked on his butt and it looked real effective) - but most of us lack KK champ reflexes and techniques.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 4/27/2010 10:41am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  8. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 10:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OP, I don't think Shotokan is the answer to knives per say, but you're right in a way, the leaping in and out of distance of Shotokan does bear a lot of resemblance to a weapons duel. I did fencing for one summer and I was able to pick it up and instantly be competitive with people who had been doing it for 4-5 years.

    The problem is, that's a duel, not some random person coming up to you, not showing you the knife (possibly not even showing aggression) until he's already on top of you. I think there are comparatively few "fights" with knives compared to random stabbings.

    P.S. There was a good poster we used to have who worked as a bouncer for a long time and had been in a few knife encounters. In his experience he said he got cut up worse wrestling for control of the knife hand than just keeping his hands up, palms facing his face (to protect blood-vessels) and punching the guy out. It's definitely contrary to commonly held beliefs (my own included), but I think it has some merit.

    It generally makes for easier D in fighting when you can give the other person something to think about (not getting punched in the face) rather than allowing them to be 100% focused on offense, and it's probably safer to attempt to control the weapon hand when you can be a bit of an opportunist about it instead of going for it 100% of the time, even if the moment is shitty.
    Last edited by maofas; 4/27/2010 10:50am at .
  9. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 11:48am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh and on Karate blocks' suckitude:

    1. It's typical to begin with a lot of kihon and X-step drills where attacker and defender are forced to move in full kihon form, and then when they progress to sparring drills or free sparring they try to do the blocks the exact same way. Well, if you're not standing in full front stances or lunge punching off your hip anymore, the parry motion needs to be shortened as well (durr).

    2. People often start out doing a lot of X-step drills and get told to use low parry vs. low punch, mid vs. mid punch, high vs. high punch. It lets students practice all 3 basic blocks, and gives them some practice distinguishing low/mid/high attacks, but in reality, lower parry is for straight kicks to the lower gut and the high parry is for attacks that come from above. The majority of real punch parrying is done with with osae uke and soto uke which work very well for that purpose.

    In general I think parrying is taught very poorly most of the time even in generally good schools. There are a couple of very key details that people learn intuitively over the years/reps and, when they become instructors, fail to explicitly tell their students about because it's not really something they've ever consciously thought about themselves.
    Last edited by maofas; 4/27/2010 11:56am at .
  10. Prince Vlad is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 11:52am


     Style: BJJ n stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can only speak from my own experience with TMA, I used to think that I was pretty handy when it came to defense against weapons until I sparred against someone with a rubber knife. **** never goes down in the real world like you learn in a choreographed technique. Training in any style against knife should be just like training against open hand attack. If you don't introduce as much aliveness as possible into knife defense training then you are screwed if you try to defend against a real attacker. The thing that pisses me off most about most TMA training is that they teach choreographed defense against bladed weapons. It's already been proven that this type of training doesn't work against unarmed attackers so why would it work against someone in a more lethal scenario with a weapon? If anything, knife defense training should be drilled with as much aliveness as possible using safe rubber blades to properly pressure test and experience an attack. If you try to do traditional blocking from a traditional stances against a training partner who is doing his best to cut or stab you then you'll quickly discover what does and doesn't work. The first time I sparred full contact round against someone with a fake knife I realised that I had to change my perspective and unlearn years of training if I ever hoped to survive a real encounter. Basically, if you want to find out if something works or not - go spar full on for a minute or two with someone and tell them to do their damndest to cut you.
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