[YounWha]

Originally Posted by ShaolinKungPao

Sounds like a wild guess based on a patch image. That doesn't really add anything to your argument IMO.

It's not just the patch - but the forms that are taught match Kang Duk Kwan's forms for the most part. I have also talked to Robert McLain - from GM Kim Soo's school - and he stated GMH's training lineage and it does have ties to Kang Duk Won. So no it's not just the patches that are similar.

As I said before, GMH's history was NOT pushed on people in my time. The training itself was the focus, not the old man's stories. His tales were told in passing to students on occasion, but were never required reading on any scale. I don't know why suddenly his life story, legit or otherwise, suddenly ends up on the school's marketing items and training materials. That throws up HUGE red flags from my point of view.

The only place I have seen his bio is on the internet - and I am trying to get that updated cause of all the fuss people are making.

That sounds like Juan.....

Yes it was - he wasn't rude or mean but just didn't really say much.

He switched consonants on a word by accident? Big deal, I know native English speakers who've done that many times, myself included.

Just a point I was making - not the foundation for my argument.

There was no 540 kick when I was studying. There WAS a Hurricane Kick. Different schools of thought in TKD have different names for a kick for quite a few reasons. I've seen native English speakers who study multiple styles sometimes get "knife hand" switched with "sword hand" and its the same thing.

The problem is - these kicks are different. No one does a TKD 540 kick in Youn Wha anyway - it's hard for most people. But that kick GMH coudl only come up with something closely relating it to - such the hurricane kick. Point is something this small can have huge consequences when debating people - like here.

Um, are you sure it wasn't your instructor who flubbed that story? He said, she said, sounds like.

Yes I am sure - It was told to him one way by someone - then corrected by the same person that told him originally. This is why I want a good solid bio/history of our system IF it is going to be presented online. Because as you know people will pick apart every little thing to find something wrong.
Our high rank forms need to be updated as well because of incorrect information/spelling on a few of the forms.

[Simulacrum]

Originally Posted by YounWha

It's not just the patch - but the forms that are taught match Kang Duk Kwan's forms for the most part. I have also talked to Robert McLain - from GM Kim Soo's school - and he stated GMH's training lineage and it does have ties to Kang Duk Won. So no it's not just the patches that are similar.

I'd be VERY interested to hear what McLain had to say. Post it, please?

[YounWha]

Originally Posted by Simulacrum

I'd be VERY interested to hear what McLain had to say. Post it, please?

I will give you what Robert McLain said in a comment to me and a reply from one of the Dallas people that was helping me get updated information from GMH about a year ago I think.

First - Robert McLain:

"He originally started training under Kum Hong Lee
(Sec. General of W.T.F.) in South Korea.
Even if you look at the form requirements from the
younwha web site, students are
learning the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) Palgue
1-8 forms and the WTF 1967 Yudansha forms
(Koryo, Tae Baek,, etc). I saw later that students get
some Okinawan forms beginning in the black belt ranks
and even a chuan-fa form (Palgi Kwon) at 7th dan. This
makes sense, because Man Hee Han was a student of Lee
Kum Hong,
who was from the Kang Duk Won (chuan-fa and karate
dojang). Of note: Palgi Kwon is NOT a Youn Wha form.
This form was
a standard chuan-fa form taught at the Chang Moo Kwan
and Kang Duk Won.

A more accurate lineage of Mr. Han would be:
Yoon Byung-in (Pal Guek Moon Chuan-fa & Shuto-Ryu),
Park Chul Hee & Hong Jong Pyo (Kang Duk Won), Lee Kum
Hong, then Man Hee Han.

R. McLain"

NOTE: He never did say where he got this information from - whether it be his analysis or GM Kim Soo telling him this. I would suggest you emailing Robert McLain directly to ask him yourself. www.kimsookarate.com - Let me know what he says. Don't ask me to do it because I have already have and this is all I got from him.



Here is the response from Dallas:

"Yes, Kevin, we have certificates signed by some of these men.
Byung In Yun is definitely the right instructor - Grandmaster Han saw the
picture on our website and confirmed him.

If Mr. McLain is basing his accusations of GMH making stuff up on the
published biography, he should be told that it was extrapolated from an
interview by a woman who was not entirely savvy in understanding GMH nor did
she confirm everything with GMH before it was distributed. There are
definitely misunderstood spellings and questionable names in it. She knew
nothing of GMH or TKD or its history when she did this; just interviewed and wrote"

So the interview was NOT done by his son as some assumed. It was done by an outsider and poorly done at that. This is why I am saying (read previous posts) that the original interview may not have been accurate and a new one needs to be done - probably by his son would be my recommendation. We have found errors the the credidations of the high level forms and I am working to get that information updated.


So - So far all of my research points to bad interpretation of the original interview and a recorded birthday of GMH not be accurate but still being "official" - making him over 1 year older than what was thought. May 9, 1938 is his official birthday but not his real birthday.

Anything else?

[YounWha]

I am hurt - not responses from my last post. Well wish me luck on my adventure in finding out more detailed information on GMH's history and hopefully getting it updated to the people that run the web site(s).

[Simulacrum]

Originally Posted by YounWha

I am hurt - not responses from my last post. Well wish me luck on my adventure in finding out more detailed information on GMH's history and hopefully getting it updated to the people that run the web site(s).

Sorry, I've been off banging chicks. Since you're married, I'll guess you've forgotten what that's like. Anyhow, I'd pop GMH bio page into this little tool:
http://www.archive.org/index.php
You'll see that it has in fact been altered numerous times, each change replacing a claim that has been falsified as time has passed. Interesting, yes?

[YounWha]

Originally Posted by Simulacrum

Sorry, I've been off banging chicks. Since you're married, I'll guess you've forgotten what that's like. Anyhow, I'd pop GMH bio page into this little tool:
http://www.archive.org/index.php
You'll see that it has in fact been altered numerous times, each change replacing a claim that has been falsified as time has passed. Interesting, yes?

Hmm - I guess "banging chicks" has left you a little blinded in your reading.
I see no text difference between the original page and the current one.

1992
http://web.archive.org/web/200210090...masterhan.html

2008
http://web.archive.org/web/200806151...masterhan.html

The only thing that has been altered was the graphics and the color scheme.

So instead of trying to come up with another "argument" like the one above I would like your response to my finding that GMH's birthday is actually in 1937 but his birth record (which the original one was destroyed by the japanese as told to me by his son) shows 1938. This new evidence shows that GMH could have trained with Byung before he left for North Korea.

You also asked for Robert McLain's response and I gave you that plus the response from Dallas about his comment but again you have not replied to that one either.

You ask and I give then you jump to something else without reply. As far as I am concerned I gave you what you asked for - whether you accept it is up to you.

[Simulacrum]

Originally Posted by YounWha

You ask and I give then you jump to something else without reply. As far as I am concerned I gave you what you asked for - whether you accept it is up to you.

I jumped passed the McLain because in that response, you give two reports with opposing views. Obviously, at least one of them is wrong. Since McLain is considered to be the most knowledgeable modern source of TKD history, it's a very safe bet. And you can also bet that he took that info from GM Kim. That's where he gets 99% of his info from that era (where he got all of his info for the biography of Byung In Yung: http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/yo...oonrevMay3.pdf) Additionally, Mclain told me that GM Kim trained with GMH. That makes him a VERY reliable source in the matter. Bottom line, McLain knows his shit and knows more about Byung than any person born stateside.

It should also be very clear that there is not possible way that the translaor could have completely missed the Kang Duk Won influence if GMH mentioned it. Ergo, it is safe to assume that he did not because he instead wanted to tell the translator about a magical journey with a mythical monk and training under a N Korean prisoner from across the border. If you check with anyone else from that era (Pugil Kwon is my source, the guy who headed the committee that designed the Palgue patterns. Guess what? He'd never heard of GMH either), you'll see that his argument from the perspective of the patterns also holds up.

GMH was not a student of Byung. Aside from the fact that McLain denies it (meaning that GM Kim denies it, GMH and GM Kim trained together), the dates still don't match up. When GMH was 13 with the new date, it would be 1950. Byung was in Japan attending college from 1939-1941. Byung didn't return until 1945 (when GMH would have been 8 by the new date). GMH would be 13 in 1950, the same year that Byung was taken prisoner. So no, it still doesn't work out.

Ah, unless you're assume that he meant that he trained under Byung by proxy (trained under a guy who trained under a guy who...). Ah-ha! That must have been it! But hey, why not say that he trained under Bhodi Dharma or King Leonidis? Oh! How about God?! Bottom line, GMH didn't train under Byung. Not possible. It's a lie.

[YounWha]

Ah, unless you're assume that he meant that he trained under Byung by proxy (trained under a guy who trained under a guy who...). Ah-ha! That must have been it! But hey, why not say that he trained under Bhodi Dharma or King Leonidis? Oh! How about God?! Bottom line, GMH didn't train under Byung. Not possible. It's a lie.

Point number 1:
GM Han was born in February of 1937
Byung In Yoon was taken to North Korea in August of 1950
GM Han was 13 years old in February of 1950
So that shows 6 a month period from the time GM Han turned 13 to the time Byung got taken to North Korea. So it is ENTIRELY possible that GM Han could have trained at Byung In Yoon's school before Byung left for North Korea.

Point number 2:
Gm Kim Soo was born in 1940 - three years younger than GM Han.
So that means GM Kim did NOT start training when Byung was taken to North Korea. GM Kim started training at 13 - which would make GM Han 16. So I want to know how GM Kim knows that GM Han did not train with Byung since GM Kim was again NOT training until three years after Byung left.


So help me out since you have talked to Robert McLain. Please provide information from GM Kim stating dates/times/locations that he and GM Han trained together. Show me proof that GM Han lied because no one has ever come up with any proof that states otherwise. Again no one from GM Kim's school will answer my questions so that makes me suspicious.

I seriously doubt since GM Kim won't answer my questions that he will answer yours.

Oh BTW - what is your response to the fact that no information had changed from 2002 to now on our website. You did say things were changed to hide the lies or whatever but nothing in text was ever changed.

Here's a repost

1992
http://web.archive.org/web/200210090...masterhan.html

2008
http://web.archive.org/web/200806151...masterhan.html

The only thing that has been altered was the graphics and the color scheme.


Let me know what GM Kim says when he answers your questions.

[YounWha]

Any updates? Still no word from GM Kim's school from my end.

[YounWha]

Found some more interesting information...


http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=5371,1663124

Link from Feb. 1974 regarding General Emerson teaching Tae Kwon Do to his soldiers. This is the guy that GMH talks about being his “sponsor” to get onto the base and teach.


This is the information that is posted in GMH's bio talking about training in the U.S. Army 2nd Division.