[sheperd]

I agree with KJC with so many people stating similar experiences after leaving, I believe many of the things must be true. I spoke personally with Shelly Elrod and she told me that Periera called up many of her students after they left and told them that the Elrods owed CKD money and that they were not authorized to teach anymore. Many of the students contacted were minors. I believe there were legal threats made back and forth until things cooled down.
My personal experiences: When I left Periera told all of the Chief Instructors in my area that I had shut down my business because I couldn't survive without them. When in fact I had just relocated. Upon opening my first day a plate glass window was broken and superglue was placed in my doorlocks. The following week after getting the window repaired someone smeared ice cream over all of the front windows. The next day soda pop sprayed over all of the windows. The next week it was paintballs. The police were called in each instance and did talk to a CKD instructor whom we suspected but there really wasn't any proof and it wsn't given a very high priority by the police. But I know who did it because I set up a security camera the next night and caught two people in disguise approaching my school late at night. Unfortunately they noticed the cameras and quickly turned their backs to it and fled without vandalizing. However, the unique body types were easy for me to recognize. The man was about 6'5" and the woman was under 5'. These descriptions both fit former students of mine who have opened a CKD school in town. I have not had a problem since.

I have heard of many many similar things happening to others as well. Nothing real serious just juvenile things like vandalism etc.

The real damages are financial. Trying to steal students, keeping rebates owed instsructors. Charging outrageous fees for certifications and programs etc. Madmonkey, Don't be to hard on Jonnie11. He is just telling things from his perspective. Some of these things can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt but by a preponderance. So manys peoples testimony whether anonymous or not should be pretty convincing. Just look at Koos site.

[madmonkey]

Fair enough perhaps I was a little to disparaging of you Jonnie11, but we do need to make sure that any arguments are presented in a credible and reasonable way otherwise they can just sound like whinging or bad mouthing.

The way you have presented your argument Shepherd is the perfect example. Although as you say there is no proof to go with it, you have given a clear account which states the case in a simple and straight forward manner. If you are presented in life with two arguing factions, one ranting and raving about how bad the other one is, how they lie cheat steal and how cult like and evil they are without giving clear rational example, the other calmly mentioning specific cases of injustice and how this has effected them, who are you going to side with?

Simply tell the tale and let it speak for itself. It is a far more powerful and convincing. message.

[kwangjochoi]

Originally Posted by sheperd

The man was about 6'5" and the woman was under 5'. These descriptions both fit former students of mine who have opened a CKD school in town.

Don't you find it really sad that people once called you Instructor and Friend, and then all of a sudden, do that type of thing?

It saddens me, not only because it happened to me too, but because these people turn so nasty, all without a second thought as to what they are doing, and why they're doing it. To them, you've become the anti-Christ, and in their minds it's ok to do these things. Yet at the same time, they recite the "Principles" or "Tenets" like they mean something, but they actually don't mean anything to them.

The same people will stand in front of other people's children, and talk to them about respect, discipline, courtesy, humility, modesty, without seeing the hypocricy of their words and actions.

[daveblue]

Originally Posted by madmonkey

I am currently in contact with Ralph Allison(his website was the subject of the thread Choi Kwang Do the delusion continues) via email. He got back to me and is offering a composed and rational argument regarding Choi Kwang Do. He focuses mainly on the health aspects of the art and the intention to continue training with as little injury as possible.

As to the controversial issues surrounding ex CKD instructors he says with out mentioning any names that he heard a lot of the complaints were something to do with money and that he steers clear of internal politics. Having come from a Taekwondo background I can appreciate that hell even the UFC has its fair share.

I might broach this at another juncture but I am hoping Choi or Pereira who I have also contacted will respond as it direclty involves them. I have heard back from Pereira who asked why I was researching it. I simply stated that I was doing it out of general interest and for the benefit of the public who would see a more open discussion of the issues. I have heard nothing back as yet but I only sent the email last night.

I have just emailed Ralph Allison and have put forward the arguments and criticisms often levelled agianst Choi Kwang Do in he hope he can offer a more in depth answer than we have had before.

Ihear that Ralph Allison has now left choi and has his own chi combat school.

[daveblue]

Has anyone heard of QI KWAN DO in uk as it is an ex choi insructor now calling himself a Master?

[daveblue]

as an outsider to choi kwang do i have the choi dvds and i was impressed with the power of Gm and as for the problems with instructors i have seen this in tkd org in uk,its all about politics,as for the rubbishing instructors,have you thought that M choi maybe right as he is a perfectionist ,and i have seen many martial artists that are over weight and hopeless,the problem with ckd is like everything how do you keep the quility of the insructors up when it gets so big an org,it is very difficult and what happens is you lose students. But in uk there are other worse org set up by people that politics is a way of life and who leave an org and then self promote themselves and love getting there picture taken,these people will know who they are?

[saman]

Originally Posted by daveblue

Has anyone heard of QI KWAN DO in uk as it is an ex choi insructor now calling himself a Master?

That is Roberto Parisi. Nice guy, in general. Badly disparaged by choi and periera after the big UK seminar a few years ago - i thought it was a pretty well done production. Problem with lots of x-ckd chief instructors is that they try to create a version of ckd that corrects the weaknesses of the art and then re-create the system in their own image. If Rob wants to promote himself to master, it's no different than choi promoting himself to grandmaster. neither of them is affiliated with a legitimate credentialing organisation like the WTF or ITF or any of the karate organisations.

[daveblue]

Originally Posted by saman

That is Roberto Parisi. Nice guy, in general. Badly disparaged by choi and periera after the big UK seminar a few years ago - i thought it was a pretty well done production. Problem with lots of x-ckd chief instructors is that they try to create a version of ckd that corrects the weaknesses of the art and then re-create the system in their own image. If Rob wants to promote himself to master, it's no different than choi promoting himself to grandmaster. neither of them is affiliated with a legitimate credentialing organisation like the WTF or ITF or any of the karate organisations.

hi i am sorry but grandmaster choi was at least a 6th dan in the itf so he was a master anyway,not a 2nd dan and also master choi is freinds still with itf masters, the only problem with choi as i said before and same with all martial arts is when things become so big it is difficult to inforce quility of clubs and as everything it all comes down to money troubles.
Jack of all trades master of none as they say remember also that there are many in all martial arts that are over weight, one of master chois helpers which does not promote a good image,but at least the mane man can walk the walk.

[madmonkey]

Originally Posted by daveblue

hi i am sorry but grandmaster choi was at least a 6th dan in the itf so he was a master anyway,not a 2nd dan and also master choi is freinds still with itf masters, the only problem with choi as i said before and same with all martial arts is when things become so big it is difficult to inforce quility of clubs and as everything it all comes down to money troubles.
Jack of all trades master of none as they say remember also that there are many in all martial arts that are over weight, one of master chois helpers which does not promote a good image,but at least the mane man can walk the walk.

A fair point regarding Choi's fitness and power compared to other more rotund or flabby "masters". And yes Choi was a Master in TKD but these are not the issues of controversy surronding CKD. Enforcing quality in any organisation is difficult especially an international one but CKD as an art does not even have all the qualities it claims in its pure form let alone a poorly taught version. It does not cover areas such as ground fighting and does not spar which means that a lot of techniques are untested by the people who learn them. YET it has claimed to be the ultimate in self defence. The claims made about Choi's behavior and that of those directly under him is a little more than a financial disagreement. It includes possible intimidation, criminal damage, fraud, violent threats and even pointing a gun at someone. Whether true or not nothing has been forth coming from Choi himself and yet so many of ex CKDers make these claims that I would be surpised if there was some truth to at least some of them.

[daveblue]

hi madmonky what i have seen maybe true, but as to street self defence you are not dealing with a gracie groundfighter or cage fighter,usually some low life coward or gang,which as bruce lee used to say better to run if you can,and not to let it go to the ground,fight only as if no other way,the art of fighting without fighting,as to self defence kwang jo choi taught it to the army in his native country,i also think that there is sour grapes when anyone leaves an org as i have seen with a tkd club i was training in the past,but i do not comment on it .