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  1. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 1:38pm


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Why become a soldier?



    Because to some people in the world, you are an infidel and deserving of death whether you are heavily armed soldier manning a checkpoint or a 4 day old little girl. You are either an infidel or you're not.

    The more I hear about how fucked up things are in the world the more I believe that it is better to fight these people in their back yard on our terms rather than in our back yard on their terms.
    You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it
  2. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 1:45pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thomas Paine once told a story about a man who while holding the hand of his child, was making a comment about how he wished for "peace in my time". Paine then pointed out why any man with a spine would hope that, if there be war, it'd be in his time so his child could live in peace.
  3. Suprore is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 1:51pm


     Style: Bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have full respect for anyone who chooses to be a soldier and think it's a vital part of society, and you make a very huge, noble sacrifice to protect our individual freedoms.

    However, not to spout hippie bullshit but the 'infidel' thing smacks of an under educated kneejerk reaction to social/racial tension. You're not fighting 'these people', you're fighting a small minority of crazies and a bunch of people who are too stupid/immature/uneducated/emotional to understand that they're throwing their lives away for other people's cause.

    Which is natural, and how war works, and the cost of doing the right thing, but... I don't know, seems like an issue that should be treated with more care than 'THOSE BAD DUDES THINK MY LITTLE GIRL'S AN INFIDEL.' That's the same kind of flawed mindset that puts guns in the hands of the otherwise innocent kids who are fighting us.
  4. BSDaemon is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 2:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If somebody was in your back yard fighting you, wouldn't you get upset at them about it?
  5. The Twitcher is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 3:32pm


     Style: Freestyle

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought the word was "kaffir"? Anyway, you probably made most of the loonies run and hide, but at the same time you cause a lot of collateral damage and made some enemies out of people who just wanted to live and let live. That's the axiom most people live by, they don't want any of the bullshit, they just want to survive.

    So, there are plenty of people on the other side of the fence looking straight at you with the same level of moral and social, and even political outrage.

    Everyone thinks the Swiss are pussies because they are neutral. Well, who fucks with them? I have yet to see an good argument against "armed neutrality". As for being a soldier, it is possible to learn paramilitary skills anywhere on Earth, I don't need to fight for uncle sam to learn those kinds of things. As such, armed neutrality is pretty easy for me.
  6. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 3:41pm


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Suprore View Post

    However, not to spout hippie bullshit but the 'infidel' thing smacks of an under educated kneejerk reaction to social/racial tension. You're not fighting 'these people', you're fighting a small minority of crazies and a bunch of people who are too stupid/immature/uneducated/emotional to understand that they're throwing their lives away for other people's cause.

    Which is natural, and how war works, and the cost of doing the right thing, but... I don't know, seems like an issue that should be treated with more care than 'THOSE BAD DUDES THINK MY LITTLE GIRL'S AN INFIDEL.' That's the same kind of flawed mindset that puts guns in the hands of the otherwise innocent kids who are fighting us.
    A few years ago there was a terrorist group who for whatever reason couldn't bomb a US warship in which they planned to.
    So instead they attacked a french oil tanker (if memory serves me right). I don't remember if it was sunk or not.

    The terrorists were then interviewed and the interviewer said something along the lines of
    But why would you attack a FRENCH ship? France has probably been the biggest supporter of keeping the US OUT of Iraq. If anything the fench should be the LAST people you want to upset, their basically on your side?!

    The guy answered it doesn't matter their all infidels anyways.

    The whole "It's just a small minority" is just silly. THAT is a knee jerk comment made when people don't want to accept there are a lot of people out in the world who are quite capable and happy of doing them harm. There are a lot of good people out there, there is also a lot of bad people. Trying to chalk it up to a small minority is a false sense of security IMO.



    If somebody was in your back yard fighting you, wouldn't you get upset at them about it?
    Yup. Why are they in my back yard?

    If I wanted to kill you and you're family because you don't follow the same god as me would you rather deal with me at my house or wait until I come over to yours?
    You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it
  7. creativo is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 4:37pm


     Style: Judofitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltySpark View Post
    The guy answered it doesn't matter their all infidels anyways.
    next sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltySpark View Post
    The whole "It's just a small minority" is just silly.
    ???
    This can't be your proof.

    I understand your point of view, you do deal with people who want to kill you. But maybe many of them wouldn't feel the need of coming to your doorstep.
  8. Suprore is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 5:00pm


     Style: Bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by creativo View Post
    I understand your point of view, you do deal with people who want to kill you. But maybe many of them wouldn't feel the need of coming to your doorstep.

    Well, i'm not so sure about THAT. It's very likely the more 'hardcore' religious zealots can make a pretty convincing case as to why to want to kill americans, and convince a large body of angry, under-educated youth to pick up arms.
    And we're going to have to fight them, because they're going to want to fight us.
    The point i was trying to make is that just because crazy tankerbombrs seen above were total psychopaths doesnt mean everyone who fights on their side is. Odds and common logic and history say most of the people fighting are just stupid kids. Maybe stupid kids you couldnt change the mind of, but saying they're all crazy evil zealots seems like a false sense of security, imo.

    It's not like if we leave people in afghanistan or iraq are going to stop hating the west and wanting westerners dead. It's just that the moral issue is a lot touchier and more unpleasant than 'bad dudes say we're infidels'.

    'bad dudes convince a ton of impressionable youth to die for them' is a bit closer, but then you get into the whole 'GOOD dudes convince a ton of impressionable youth to die fighting those bad impressionable youth' debate and blahblahblah i shouldnt have even brought it up.

    War sucks, respect for the guys who endure it for the sake of the rest of us.
  9. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 6:09pm


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Suprore View Post
    Well, i'm not so sure about THAT. It's very likely

    It's not like if we leave people in afghanistan or iraq are going to stop hating the west and wanting westerners dead. It's just that the moral issue is a lot touchier and more unpleasant than 'bad dudes say we're infidels'.
    That's an excellent point.
    If we leave, they won't stop. If we stay, they won't stop.
    So honestly what to do?

    I don't like the idea of going to someones country and telling them how to do their business but what if their business is getting ready to come do us harm?

    I don't see any great way to deal with a country (or organization) whom intends us harm due to to differences in our beliefs.

    Serious question for you gentlemen.
    What happens if tomorrow NATO says you know what dudes, **** it.
    And we withdraw completely from Iraq and Afghanistan.
    We pull back our observers from Africa and the Balklands.
    If North Korea and Iran start testing nukes and we say 'hey nice job on the rocket! carry on!'.

    What do you see happening?
    You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it
  10. ArrogantBastard is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 7:03pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltySpark View Post
    That's an excellent point.
    If we leave, they won't stop. If we stay, they won't stop.
    So honestly what to do?

    I don't like the idea of going to someones country and telling them how to do their business but what if their business is getting ready to come do us harm?

    I don't see any great way to deal with a country (or organization) whom intends us harm due to to differences in our beliefs.

    Serious question for you gentlemen.
    What happens if tomorrow NATO says you know what dudes, **** it.
    And we withdraw completely from Iraq and Afghanistan.
    We pull back our observers from Africa and the Balklands.
    If North Korea and Iran start testing nukes and we say 'hey nice job on the rocket! carry on!'.

    What do you see happening?
    Israel would almost definitely attack Iran.

    I don't think S. Korea and Japan would stay idle about N. Korea either.

    The combination of these will probably start another world war.
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