The reason Frank Mir lost!

**jasonbrinn** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 7:33am

Ok,

I am interested in hearing peoples response to the question, why did Frank Mir lose to Brock Lesnar.

Obviously, those of us that actually saw the event could detail what specifically happened, but this is not what I am looking for here.

I think the fight raises some interesting questions and points as to "bigger/stronger" verses "technique/strategy."

We are told that BJJ and Martial Arts in general give the "smaller/weaker" person the ability to defend themselves against the "bigger/stronger" attacker.

However, this does not seem to be what is seen lately in the MMA world. Brock beat Couture, GSP beat Penn, Brock beats Mir. It seems lately that the stronger more athletically superior fighters are winning.

One could make the statement that at some point physics makes the argument an easy one in favor of the "bigger/stronger." But if that is the case where is the tipping point?

Opinions, comments, insights:

**Munacra** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 7:43am

The answer is obvious! Frank Mir lost to Brock Lesnar because you didn't coach him! duh!

**Kambei Shimada** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 7:46am

Well being a fairly large (210lbs) guy i have to admit i have submitted alot of more experience more technical guys in class purely through outwrestling my sparring partners pinning them and muscling in a submission.

Although still a fairly large guy i dont think Mir is particularly strong or explosive for a heavyweight. Brock on the other hand is a beast and what he lacks in experience and technical skill he more than makes up for in horsepower.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 8:13am

Technique VS size technique wins

Technique vs size and technique size wins

Brock used technique and size

**Matt Phillips** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 8:20am

It doesn't help when your giant-sized opponent has access to the same training that you do.

Do you think Royce would have subbed Severn if Dan had even white belt exposure to the triangle?

There is a reason why there are weight classes. That fact alone answers your question.

Extra credit: Go back and look at the historical cycle of giant freak athletes (mostly freestyle wrestlers) shaking up the sport, and eventually getting dethroned. Take a look at who beat them (and who didn't), and I bet you can predict how Brock will rise and fall.

**Gabetuno** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 8:25am

Originally Posted by jasonbrinn

Ok,

I am interested in hearing peoples response to the question, why did Frank Mir lose to Brock Lesnar.

Obviously, those of us that actually saw the event could detail what specifically happened, but this is not what I am looking for here.

I think the fight raises some interesting questions and points as to "bigger/stronger" verses "technique/strategy."

We are told that BJJ and Martial Arts in general give the "smaller/weaker" person the ability to defend themselves against the "bigger/stronger" attacker.

However, this does not seem to be what is seen lately in the MMA world. Brock beat Couture, GSP beat Penn, Brock beats Mir. It seems lately that the stronger more athletically superior fighters are winning.

One could make the statement that at some point physics makes the argument an easy one in favor of the "bigger/stronger." But if that is the case where is the tipping point?

Opinions, comments, insights:

Well, Couture is no BJJ phenom, let's establish that first off. Also, his loss was due to getting clocked while standing, so his fight with Brock isn't really a good example of how "experience in BJJ doesn't always save you".

Secondly, BJJ changes somewhat when someone has the ability to punch you in the face. Now, assuming Mir is a BJJ god (which I would dispute heavily. I've never liked his Jiu-Jitsu, and his takedown D blows chuke), it still doesn't change the fact that the equation of being on bottom against a bigger stronger man alters as the man on top learns more and more Jiu-Jitsu, which obviously Brock does in his training.

This is also true with BJ Penn, who, while being a Jiu-Jitsu phenom, is also succeptable to punches in an MMA match. In his case, his opponent was WAY bigger, WAY stronger, a MUCH better wrestler, and also a BJJ black belt. So all that proves is the bigger stronger more athletic more talented wrestler and striker black belt wins the fight against the other black belt. Kind of a no-brainer.

Now, if you examine Damien Maia's record, he regularly goes up against stronger "more athletic" opponents who are better strikers, and still gets the sub. One could argue that his Jiu-Jitsu talent is so great, that even when he fights other black belts, it's not a fair comparison.

Moreover, there have been hundreds of fights where the bottom man, whatever his stature, is getting his ass beat and still pulls off the win through knowledge of BJJ. A. Silva vs. Chonan is one that comes to mind, as well as Nogueira vs. Silvia. Hell, Nogueira vs. Most Of His Opponents.

In conclusion, those three fights don't mean much for reasons stated, and knowing how to fight off your back is still as crucial as ever, if not moreso, given the awareness and knowledge of everyone has been raised with regard to Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

**maofas** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 8:27am

While you still need practice and some degree of technique to do it, I think it requires less skill to lay on someone and avoid being subbed from the bottom than it does for the guy underneath to submit you, particularly when you're not wearing a gi and are allowed to punch them in the face.

**babo78** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 8:30am

There are few examples of just size vs. technique fights.

Akebono vs. Royce

Fedor vs. Hong Man Choi (HMC)

Courter vs. Sylvia

Akebono and Hong Man Choi are big and lack techniques. Both were using their size to advantage and both fights went to the ground. While Sylvia does have more technique than HMC and Akebono, he still got beatdown from Courter who have more technique than Sylvia.

When you take only technique and size into account, technique can help you cover the gap a ton. Keep in mind thought this is only strictly speaking of technique vs. size. Brock is blessed with gift of size and technique.

**Gabetuno** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 8:35am

Couture Silvia doesn't have anything to do with this thread. The question is about Size vs BJJ Technique, not Size vs. Inside Boxing Technique, which is what won Couture the fight with Silvia. His ability to box and get inside is also what made his takedowns more effective.

**Gabetuno** · Posted On: 7/16/2009 8:36am

Originally Posted by maofas

While you still need practice and some degree of technique to do it, I think it requires less skill to lay on someone and avoid being subbed from the bottom than it does for the guy underneath to submit you, particularly when you're not wearing a gi and are allowed to punch them in the face.

Debatable, based on who you are and who you're fighting. As I said, I've never been blown away by Mir's bottom game. He tends to get great submissions on people who don't know much about dick, and against everyone else he gets **** all.