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  1. Seiryoku Zenyo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2009 9:34pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo, Brazilian JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Heirarchy of Gi grips

    Hi guys,

    In wrestling, there is a fairly obvious positional hierarchy in regards to the various arm positions or 'grips', with things like the double collar tie, two on one and bear hug being advantageous positions, Collar-and-elbow tie and pinch grips being a neutral position, and being on the receiving end of the aforementioned advantageous grips is a disadvantageous position.

    Many of these positions do not exist in Gi grappling (You rarely see under hooks in Judo, for example...) because the Gi facilitates much easier gripping. However, there are a finite number of common variations: Standard lapel and sleeve, Cross sleeve grip, double lapel grip and double sleeve, Power grip, European grip and so on.

    My question is; has anyone heard of, been taught or developed a hierarchy of Gi grips?

    The importance of a positional matrix like this cannot be understated. It is just as important to wrestling as the positional hierarchy of Bjj is to ground fighting - its what makes these Arts so much easier to learn and preform.

    The Judo fighters at my club suggested to me that it is simply a matter of preference, but what I suspect occurs is that they all work it out, subconsciously, and that at high levels of competition we might see more points scored with some grips then others. I thought I might ask here for the experience of others in the hopes of preserving me the effort of having to do some sort of study myself.

    Thanking you in anticipation of your replies.
  2. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 12:00am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never been taught judo grips as a hierarchial system. This is likely due to combination of several things. One is that grips are generally a matter of preferance, people develop their preferred grips to go with their preferred throws so work to get those particular grips. Thus there is no "top" grip, it will be different for each individual. As well there isn't as much progression in grips as in BJJ ground, you're generally at your preferred grip with a pull or slight transition from the basic grip.

    In my time in judo, though tons of training camps, visiting other dojos, etc I've never heard or seen reference to what you're describing. Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea but I've never seen it.
  3. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 5:00am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The concept should really be about "your" grip. You really need to focus on where you want your hands to be to throw the other guy.

    From there it's get one hand on and move, get your second hand on and attack.

    There are many grips in Judo, there are entire books on the subject; but only one or two should be focused on by a player.
  4. Seiryoku Zenyo is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 6:41am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo, Brazilian JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post
    The concept should really be about "your" grip. You really need to focus on where you want your hands to be to throw the other guy.

    From there it's get one hand on and move, get your second hand on and attack.

    There are many grips in Judo, there are entire books on the subject; but only one or two should be focused on by a player.
    Thank you for your replies.

    It certainly makes sense that, just as a Judo player will want to develop one or two favorite throws, he will want to perfect one or two grips.

    But I would argue that grips, just like throws, are not all equal. There are some throws that appear all the time in competition and others that rarely do. This is because the effectivness of a technique is limited more by the laws of physics and human physiology than the preference of the Judo player.

    Surely then it is the same with grips - some are going to offer better fulcrums, points of control etc, that will facilitate better throwing.

    Now at this point, it might seem that there is no need for a positional matrix because identifying the grips that lead to those highest percentage throws is all that is needed.

    But if this process is being learned passively and subconsciously (Which it must be, because it must exist, otherwise we might see much greater variation of technique) then people are also learning how to defend against these "positions" of grip. Hence the need for a positional hierarchy; Just as BJJ players will work from one position to another because they cant always go straight to mount, I imagine a Judo player would have to take one grip to gradually work towards a superior one that facilitates those bread and butter throws.

    So to reframe my question in context of what I just wrote:

    What are the most common initial grips (Lower on the positional heirarchy, the equivilent of the gaurd in Bjj), and which are the grips that allow for the most sucessful scoring of high percentage throws (Mount or something)?
  5. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 7:37am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You could argue but you shouldn't. Grip fighting is just about getting a dominate grip and not letting your opponent get theirs. Most players have a preferred throw this determines your grip. As simple as it sounds don't let them get inside or over your back.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  6. ignatzami is offline
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    l Travel To Get Choked!

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 9:23am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I play off a traditional 1882, or a high collar 1882. Other grips just feel weird, now with that being said my go-to throws are Osoto-Makikomi, Harai-Gosh, and Marote-Seionage. All three of these throws just work better for me from the traditional 1882, or a high collar 1882. I could get a double lapel, or a double sleeve, but it would not help me and in fact would most likely hinder me in getting my throws.

    I think your looking for something that just isn't there.
  7. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 10:36am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have never heard of a normal grip called an 1882 that's funny.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  8. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 3:58pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The thing is you're trying to box gripping into a system it just won't follow. It's such an individual thing given that certain people favor certain grips from certain throws.

    The "basic" sleeve and lapel grip is far from neutral for some people. Some judoka do their throws exclusively from there. Myself on the other hand has a very limited set of throws from there so my advantageous position is sleeve underhook grip. Others prefer an overhand grip and so on.

    The second element overlooked is kuzushi from the grip which is probably the most important factor. Kuzushi is applied different directions from different grips for different throws for different people... get the idea.

    Judo standup is incredibly individualized. Yes there are some throws and girps that work better but even within these there are thousands of individual variations. The best you could do would be to create individual hierarchies for each judoka but I don't think that's what you're looking for.
  9. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 4:16pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yah, I wouldn't be able to categorize certain grips as better than others universally. But there are definitely grips that work better for you., dependant on your throwing preferences and the situation.

    For instance, I absolutely love overwraps. If I get a good overwrap on someone, I can hit a duck under spoke-style throw in an instant. It is my best throw and it is automatic. Ironically, a lot of people much prefer underhooks and will just hand me the overwrap like it's a birthday present with a bow on it.

    Many grapplers are very focused on fighting for those underhooks when it comes to close-range body grips. And it damn well might work for them very well. But for me, especially being a taller guy at 6'2, the overwrap just makes too much sense to pass up with my preference for throwing.
  10. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/01/2009 4:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The entire usefulness of BJJ's positional hierarchy is that it prioritizes nearly all action for all practitioners. The same is not true of grips.

    What, then, is the correct mentalization or framework to put grips into? A throwing / gripping matrix? I've experimented with flow diagrams, to minor success.

    "Kouchi to either tai otoshi or seoinage" prefaced by "prefer (but don't need) low lapel grip plus end-of-sleeve" is 90% of my game. Visualizing or mapping those throws and grips isn't so exciting. What of visualizing or mapping the grips that would inhibit me from getting there? It's almost an inverse project, but is it useful?

    If not, what's the model/diagram for the clinch?
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
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