A tale of MACP, Grappling, and Tasers

[TheMightyMcClaw]

YouTube - Soldier gets hit with a Stun Gun during interview

I've encountered periodic talk of using a taser as a substitute for a knife in self-defense training, but I particularly enjoy the way they've set it up in the above video. It seems like a good way to get trainees into the mindset of anticipating a potentially armed opponent and the drawing of a weapon mid-fight.
I'm liking MACP more all the time. If only MCMAP could be as cool.

[Mtripp]

Well.. in my never to be humble opinion...

...total bullshit.

All BJJ based, everything looks great... not a helmet or a back pack or a web belt in the room...

..that makes all of those moves VERY different from the real world.

[Carpe Noctem]

Well, in all fairness, full gear is worn in full contact sparring at advanced levels...

...but that's the problem; it only seems to be at the advanced levels.

What individual units do may vary, though.

[Mtripp]

In truth, its a waste of time. I reject the premise that any army fighting any conflict would ever use the material being trained.

However, it is cheap.

The time would be better spent on shooting skills. But bullets cost money.

[Gezere]

In truth, its a waste of time. I reject the premise that any army fighting any conflict would ever use the material being trained.

However, it is cheap.

The time would be better spent on shooting skills. But bullets cost money.

Mark you would be wrong. There have been currently over 800 incidents (granted that is relatively small compared to the number of fire fighs) in both Iraq and Afghanistan in which MAC has been used. I am MACP Instructor and we do training in full battle rattle. The problem is that due to so many other things on the training calender it takes a while to get guys to that level to do it in a more regular basis.

[Mtripp]

Mark you would be wrong. There have been currently over 800 incidents (granted that is relatively small compared to the number of fire fighs) in both Iraq and Afghanistan in which MAC has been used. I am MACP Instructor and we do training in full battle rattle. The problem is that due to so many other things on the training calender it takes a while to get guys to that level to do it in a more regular basis.

I have been wrong before, and likely will be wrong again...

...I am not wrong now.

The fact that it was "used" is not the issue. The issue is where is the time better spent.

Richard Marchinko (sp?) tells of the trouble he was in because his Seal Team Six spent more money on training to shoot than the entire Marine Corp.

I do not think anyone would be foolish enough to believe he and his men were unskilled, or lacking in abilities. He himself has said that the job is to shoot people. Not to knife fight with them, and of course not to deal with them hand to hand.

The fundamental concept of "Unarmed Combat" for the Military is fatally unsound, and always has been. Scripture follows...

"Unarmed combat should be taught on the premise that it is a form of combat you use only after your weapons are unavailable. If your gun is empty, throw it at then enemy than use Unarmed Combat."

My point is the time is better spent making sure your weapons are available and you shoot well enough that you do not run out of bullets. It takes a great deal of training to avoid "spray and pray."

If you are saying BJJ training for the troops is to build spirit as pugil training did in the old days, then I have no problem. If you are telling me guard passes, mount positions, and collar chokes have a place on the battlefield, I am going to say phui!

We of course will have to agree to disagree.

[Gezere]

I have been wrong before, and likely will be wrong again...

...I am not wrong now.

You are wrong now.

The fact that it was "used" is not the issue. The issue is where is the time better spent.

No. You stated:

I reject the premise that any army fighting any conflict would ever use the material being trained.

You rejected a premise when the FACT is that an Army, ours, has used the material trained, which again I been instructing for years, in TWO conflicts right now.

Richard Marchinko (sp?) tells of the trouble he was in because his Seal Team Six spent more money on training to shoot than the entire Marine Corp.

That really has little bearing on this issue.

I do not think anyone would be foolish enough to believe he and his men were unskilled, or lacking in abilities. He himself has said that the job is to shoot people. Not to knife fight with them, and of course not to deal with them hand to hand.

The fundamental concept of "Unarmed Combat" for the Military is fatally unsound, and always has been. Scripture follows...

"Unarmed combat should be taught on the premise that it is a form of combat you use only after your weapons are unavailable. If your gun is empty, throw it at then enemy than use Unarmed Combat."
If you are saying BJJ training for the troops is to build spirit as pugil training did in the old days, then I have no problem. If you are telling me guard passes, mount positions, and collar chokes have a place on the battlefield, I am going to say phui!

We of course will have to agree to disagree.

Well you can disagree but you would still be wrong. Mark I'm not a guys sitting on the sidelines this is something I know first hand and as veteran of our current conflict and will be returning to it in a few weeks.

Bottomline is MACP (which is not just BJJ BTW) works, it has worked on our current battlefield. Guard passes and sweeps as well as armlocks and chokes have been performed by men in full gear in the middle of a firefight. It has proven itself enough to warrant the time spent training it and that isn't enough. Yes its there to instill an "Warrior Spirit" which is needed but it also made of of methods that pple have used successfully. Yes we shoot pple but this conflict isn't like what we had been training for before. This isn't force on force. We are not fighting a clearly identifiable enemy. We do find ourselves working in close proximity with pple who may or may not be bad guys. We enter confined areas where you might find you can't employ your weapon as fast as you hoped and your battles might not be able to help you right away so you have to do something there and then. MACP is not for when everything goes right it for when **** goes wrong.

[Gidi]

imho, unarmed combat is extremely important for a military force, particularly one fighting today's kind of conflict, where sometimes you just need to arrest someone, or bring him in for questioning, in those cases if he's not shooting, but still putting up a struggle, you have to drag him in, sometimes violently.

A good friend of mine was a special forces guy here in the IDF, and he told me he never had to shoot anybody, but he had plenty of fights, where he mostly used his civilian judo training and what they taught him in counter-terrorism school, to bring the guy in.

you don't shoot people that are not compliant, sometimes you deck them, sometimes you choke them, and sometimes you send them home.

the other aspect that is important in h2h training for a soldier is well, aggression, which is critical in a conflict.

just my humble opinion from my experience.

[Cassius]

The Special Operations community overwhelmingly shares Gezere's opinion. The NEW HOTTNESS right now is Vanguard, but most units will readily admit that they send their guys to that more to get them comfortable with transitioning from primary to secondary to tertiary and back with full kit in a stressful situation than to teach them any H2H fighting ability. And that's something I think everyone can agree is very important.

However, combatives is still very much emphasized as part of a regular PT program. Of course, it's a bit different than the Basic/AIT stuff you see on Youtube, but it's still a lot of the same basics. Just with a lot of **** on. Here's my point: In a war where you don't always know who the bad guy is, and even if you do, it isn't always preferred that you kill him/her, it has proven useful to have a basic understanding and comfort level with grappling, and of the hierarchy of positions on the ground.

Also, SEAL Team 6s ginormously overinflated budget has little relevance to this discussion.

[jnp]

The NEW HOTTNESS right now is Vanguard, *snip*

Is this what you're talking about?

YouTube - US Army Future Combat Systems (FCS) 'Vanguard'