[Nilsoron]

Hi all. Just wondering, anyone here know anything of Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu? I'm wondering if it has a sparring/freeplay portion, technical emphasis, any striking, and so on. General info, in other words. The sites I've found didn't detail much, save that I've seen it has chokes and groundfighting.

[John A Butz]

Hontai Yoshin Ryu has standing and ground grappling, throws, strikes, bo and iai(sword drawing). It is a classical style of jujutsu, so there will most likely not be a large amount fo free play, but as I do not train in it and have only observed demos, I honestly can not speak in any real detail of the art.

There is a good teacher in New Jersey, by the name of Steve Fabian. If you were in that state, and near his place, I am sure he would be able to help you with your questions.

[Spunky]

Dr. Hatsumi is soke of a branch of the Yoshin ryu (Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu), and although I am not learned enough to say it is the opinion of my teacher that a lot of the movement he uses in demonstration is in the style of this tradition (as opposed to Togakure ryu ninpo that most people associate with this organization).

I don't know how similar the two arts are, but I can relay a bit of what I've learned about the Takagi Yoshin ryu.

The school was used by samurai retainers within palace grounds (often called the "bodyguard school" in the BJK). Yoshin refers to having the heart of a willow tree. It is said that the founder, who was already a renowned jujutsu practitioneer, was watching a willow tree during a heavy winter. He observed that as the tree collected snow, its branches would gradually sag under the intense weight. But finally, when its ability to bear the load was about to break, a bit of snow would roll off the branches, which would then recoil upward and fling the rest of the burden away and return to its original state. Cute, no?

The throws actually seem to mimic this very directly. In many judo and jujutsu schools, you are taught to immoblize the base or the top of the opponent and throw by forcing the unstable half over or out from under him. Many martial artists have probably been shown a concept sometimes called the "third leg": picture a line formed from the heel to toe on each foot of the opponent, and find where they would intersect if the continued infinitely; moving his center of mass toward that point will cause him to lose balance.

The Yoshin ryu style of throws/takedowns that I've been shown uses strikes and disbalancing movements to move the opponent toward this point, and as he falls you place your body in the way, either in a way that he falls onto it (breaking or turning him over) or such that it provides a support (which is taken out from under him or flings him into the air). Limbs are locked out and used for leverage not to topple the opponent, but to direct his fall into crippling positions. These most often leave the reciever at the technician's feet, leading into arresting pins that almost always place the oppponent on his stomach.

A great emphasis is placed on learning to provoke specific attacks from the opponent, and blending with it to capture him. Muto dori gata (no-sword capture, or unarmed sword evasion drills and counters) is at the heart of this tradition. The striking method is highly kyusho-based (pressure-points, anatomical weaknesses including organs and arteries, etc), which is used to facilitate the grappling aspect, which isn't to say that you don't hit hard—the densho includes extensive strike conditioning exercises. The striking and grappling is very intertwined nonetheless. Like John Butz mentioned, it also includes use of stick fighting and daisho-sabaki (including iai). It also includes groundwork, but you will rarely be fighting from a squared off position like a mount/guard; like the standup, you fight at angles to the opponents. In fact, much of your time will be spent in the spectrum of positions between laying on the ground and standing up—freedom to move about in all directions is another big part of these techniques.

If you can't find a Hontai Yoshin ryu dojo and would like to learn more about this, you might want to look into a Bujinkan school. Although our cirriculum draws on concepts from many backgrounds, a large part of our teachings (almost all the jujutsu and ne waza, as far as I know) is from Takagi Yoshin ryu. In the dan grades you probably spend more time with the individual traditions.

[Ronin]

Hatsumi is the Soke of YOSHIN Ryu jujutsu ???

[Spunky]

If you ARE interested in Bujinkan training in the New Jersey area, you are lucky to have Jack Hoban, pretty much the formost American shihan, in your area: http://www.livingvalues.com/training.htm

[Spunky]

He inherited Sokeship to *Takagi* Yoshin ryu from Takamatsu sensei, which is a branch of the original Yoshin ryu.

[Ronin]

Ah, I see, is there ANYTHING that Hatsumi is NOT soke of ?

[katana]

Originally posted by ronin69
Ah, I see, is there ANYTHING that Hatsumi is NOT soke of ?

Yeah:

Effective-Style-Ryu

[Spunky]

Yeesh, why the hostility, I'm just trying to answer the poor blokes question. If you allude to weakness or fallacy in the Takagi Yoshin ryu that we study, then by all means share with us why... but it would be far more valuable to do so based on the substance (even if it is the simple technical description I provided) than on your biases against a distant figure.

Koryu genealogies can be rather chaotic, especially given the turbulent times they've had to survive in recent history. The Yoshin ryu is about four-hundred years hold and fairly widespread, it should not come as a suprise that this is the case here. I'm suprised anyone here cares such a great deal about who is soke of what and where they learned it. The proof is in the training, the previous post is a brief synopsis of what *I* know of the Yoshin ryu. Do with it as you will.

There are many things Hatsumi is not soke of, several things that he is, and many others he is accomplished in. If you want to know if what he has to teach is real or how effective it is, go learn from a few of his shihan that live throughout the world, or better yet go to the source. If you have no interest to do so, it makes little sense to give such biting commentary out of ignorance, but again do as you will.

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/...-takagiu_e.pdf A web page for the Kuki family, which has been closely related to the Takagi Oriemon tradition for many generations, provides a table of soke to the various lineages in the Yoshin ryu school, including both the Takamatsu line and the previous soke of the Hontai Yoshin ryu. Here we often see several students given Menkyo Kaiden as well as several names for the tradition (Hontai Yoshin ryu, Takagi ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu, etc). How similar these are is completely unknown to me, the legitimacy of inheritance of little importance next to the worth of the actual teachings.

[Kempocos]

According to thier website HATSUMI is not ,

Hontai Yoshin-Ryu is preserved by the grandmaster, Soke Inoue Tsuyoshi Munetoshi