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  1. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 9:47am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Ahh yes...no touchFTW

    Here is a gem from Black Belt Magazines July 2008 issue.

    Enjoy.


    Originally Printed in Black Belt Magazine July 2008 Vol. 46 No. 7

    CAN'T TOUCH THIS.
    An Insiders Look at Karate's Controversial No-Touch Knockout.

    by Chris Thomas

    In the Martial Arts World , perhaps nothing is as mysterious -and as controversial-as the no-touch knockout. Its's the subject of numerous historical accounts of martial artists affecting other people while making no physical contact whatsoever. The Chinese call it ling kong jing, which translates as "empty force", and the Japanese refer to it as toate-jitsu, which menas "fighting method of striking from a distance"; both offer insight into its nature and functionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Numerous unproven accounts. People have seen the Loch Ness monster for hundreds of years, yet despite our best efforts, it remains unproven that it exists. Old ass stories from China do NOT count as "facts".
    As for the functionality.....LOL, it seems that its "functionality" is to dupe the masses of LARPers into spending their money on hocus pocus bullshit. So if your aim is to get rich, I guess it is "functional"
    Historical accounts of the no-touch knockout abound. Aikido founder Morihei Uyeshiba was reported to have had the ability to throw students without making contact. In Karate-Do:My Way of Life, Gichin Funakoshi wrote that an important karate figure named Bushi Matsumura once immobilized a challenger "by the intangible force that flashed from his eyes"

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    OOOOOOHHHH, Aikido, well there's a reputable source of info. Might as well have said "Wikipedia offers many accounts of no-touch techniques". Same thing.
    Intangible force? So you are saying that Matsumura has th3 r34l Star Wars?

    Many modern marial artists received their first exposure to the technique from Healing and the Mind, a 1993 PBS documentary hosted by Bill Moyers. In it Kung Fu Master Shi Ming repelled students without making physical contact with them. Some shotokan practitioners know of the toate-jitsu because of demonstartions conducted by Mitsuke Harada, and practioners of the Russian art of Systema have observed similar demos by Vladimir Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    PBS? The same people that gave us Sesame Street? Well, there you have it, Puppets=Chi Power.
    SYSTEMA???!! LOL, well at least he has named all the bullshit arts in this article. I thought for a second he was going to leave one out. Thank goodness that TKD doesnt practice long dong fu or whatever, because then it would truly be t3h d43dly.
    My first direct experience with the no-touch knockout came in the early 1990's courtesy of a Chinese practioner of ling kong jong. Hed had me point an unloaded handgun at him. Then after about 15 seconds, my arm moved-seemingly on its own-until the gun was pointing away from his body. I found it a very interesting experience, but I remained an honest skeptic-which meant that I wasn't convinced but wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Well, if he was so good, why was the gun unloaded? If you had loaded it then maybe Darwinian theory would have taken over and rid us of this "master".
    Hell, why not have the attacker put the gun to his head and shoot himself? Now THATS a feat.
    I notice how he said "seemingly on its own" which implies that, "yeah it seemed to move on its own, but I know deep down inside that I moved my arm so this guy wouldn't feel like a chumpette.
    The toate-jitsu was added to the curriculum of George Dillman's karate organization in 1997 when a seventh degree black belt demonstrated a knockout in which he merely placed his hands on two pressure points. Within five years of that event, many within the Dillman group werer performing various examples of such techniques, including knockouts that required no physical contact.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    What two pressure points? Isnt that important info?
    Hopw quaint that within five years these guys had totally deluded themselves. One would have thought that it would take longer to become a total fucking moron.
    Then we come to the no-touch stuff. Yeah KOing a dude by rubbing his asshole point is cool, but nothing says, "kick ass ****" like knocking him out with your eyes.

    I always maintained a certain amount of quiet skepticism, never quite ruling out "cooperatrive uke syndrome". Uke is the Japanese term for the volunteer who receives the martial artists technique; cooperative-uke syndrome describes situations in which the volunteer actually facilitates the execution of the technique because he wants the martial artist to succeed. It wasn't until I attended a Dillman seminar in Indianapolis that I became convinced that that wasn't happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Just when I thought logic was going to rule the day.....
    Has anyone ever noticed how Dillman can be misread as "Dillweed"?
    Actually the Uke facilitates the execution because he doesnt want to believe that he wasted his money on a seminar. Its called "Delusional Uke Syndrome". The writer seems to be suffering from it as we speak.
    At the seminar, one of my colleagues , holding a wooden cane in his hand stood at least fifteen feet from a volunteer. He announced that he was going to aim his intenal energy (ki or chi) at the mans head and push him backwards. But instead of being pushed, the man stiffened like a board and fell over. Those nearby rushed forward catching him just in time. With considerable difficulty, they placed him in a cross leged sitting position, the posture normally used while reviving someone whos' been subjected to a pressure point knockout. I was close enough to observe that the man was unconcious.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    That would be good for getting laid. "Hold still sweetheart, I am just going to rub your shoulders." KAZAMMAPALOUIE! Then you ki juice the bitch and rape her while she is KO'oed. Damn what an idea. You could call it a Roofki.
    Close enough to observe that the man was unconcious? LOL I see people KO every month in the UFC, and its prety obvious from 1000 miles away (Memphis to LV) that they are out. What does proximity have to do with it?
    What was noteworthy was that my colleague had said that he was only going to push the man over. Usually, a no-touch knockout is preceded by an announcement of intent, which alwasy raises questions-valid or otherwise-about the power of suggestion and the expectations of the uke. But it seemed that in this instance, the misrepresentation of intent would have significantly reduced such an influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    "HA HA, tricked ya bitch. You thought I was going to push you. I knocked your uke ass out!!"
    Those sneaky Karate Masters. Tee Hee, what a hoot those seminars must be.
    Wouldnt telling someone you are going to KO them be kind of stupid? "Excuse me mister thug, I am going to KO you now."
    However, it was what happened next that really startled me. When the volunteer was finally revived, he looked up at my colleague and hissed angrily "Don't you ever do that to me again!" It was that reaction-that intensity of emotion-that removed any lingering doubts that I had. Toate-jitsu, I concluded, isn't just a legend of the martial arts; its for real.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Well, just when I was thinking you werent going to produce any imperical evidence. Good job.
    More likely the guy was saying "Dont ever make me do this **** again, I feel like a real tool for having to fake this."
    My wife has the same intensity of emotion when I act like we are going to do it doggy style and I slip it in her ass. All the while I know she secretly likes it. Yet from looking at her face and emotions one would falsely assume she doesnt really care for it.
    As I tried to acquire the skill myself, I experienced mixed , but generalyy unsatisfying results. I was able to move people a bit but couldn't achieve a knockout. That changed on the last day of a three-day training camp. I was tired from having spent so much time teaching, I had a headache and wasnt in a good mood. that's when a thought hit me-a method, a technique, a sense of how it was to be done. (Theres an intuitive element in toate-jitsu)

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    So PMS=Toate-Jitsu?
    By unsatisfying you mean that all your students laughed at you mercilessly? I would call that unsatisfying too.
    So I asked a colleague to allow me to try a no-touch knockout on him. He agreed and took up a position about six feet away. Almost immeadiately after I began, he fell forward, and I rushed to catch him before his dead weight hit the floor. He was a big guy so it was a struggle to get him seated and positioned for revival. And oh yeah, ...He stopped breathing.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    ****, you guys are reckless with you powers. You fucking rebels.
    When all was said and done, he was fine. But that was only after Dillman got his lungs working again and after I did fifteen or twenty minutes of energy restoration. Later my uke admitted that he'd actually been trying to thwart my technique by using tongue and toe placement. I found that interesting because it meant that his mental intention was specifically uncooperative.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    LOL. So the old tongue and toe method huh? That bastard.

    As I reflected on the experience, I realized that the no-touch knockout I used depended on my willingness to act without regard for the consequences of my partner. In other words, it required a certain level of ruthlessness. It was possible for me to do it that day because I was in a bad mood and didn't care. I have, however, found myself unwilling to act in the same way again. And this points me to one of the unresolved questions surrounding toate-jitsu: safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    So Dillman and Raybko are ruthless? More like shameless. This is such bullshit it makes my respiratory system fail. Good thing my wife can focus her Nag-Fu at me to get me going again.
    For more than two decades, Dillman and the members of his association have performed pressure point knockouts. We have all received them, we have all performed them and all our experiences have shown that we can safely practice them. Furthermore we have discovered that friendly training can actually have a therapeutic benefit, similar to that of shiatsu, or tuina.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Two decades? Your Math-Fu fails grasshopper. You said that he added this to the curriculum in 1997. This is 2008, thats 11 (eleven) years, not quite two decades is it?
    Like a shiatsu massage? So the little dealie that I can out in my chaire that I got from Wal-Mart can do no-touch **** too? Do you guys have heated techniques? I upgraded and got the heated model. Just thought maybe you guys did too.
    As for the safe practice. So far it doesnt seem too safe to me. People stop breathing, others lie about the technique they are about to do to the uke. Yep, thats safety for ya.

    However, the safety of no-touch methods is not so certain. Many people who've received no-touch knockouts have reported that it is extremely unpleasant. After-effects include, dizziness, weakness, disorientation, nausea, and respiratory failure. Some have reported feeling "energetically messed-up" for several days. Performers of toate-jitsu also report side effects on occasion, describing themselves as exhausted and depleted after knocking someone out.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    I guess being a shmuck takes a lot out of you. Its strange that the side effects are much like a hangover. Maybe you guys drink to much sake at the seminars. You guys need a chaperone.
    Energetically messed up? Why not have one of your "colleagues" restore your energy? Remember you said that you could do that. Careless assholes.
    However toate-jitus doesn't necessarily produce such severe outcomes. Some of my colleagues perform knockouts that result in a state of unconciousness more like sleep, with the uke waking up feeling good, even refreshed. From this, I've concluded that there are at least two categories of no-touch techniques, which can be distinguished by their effect on the recipient. This observation underscores the importance of keeping safety, morality, and propriety in mind at all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    So when I use it for self defense, I want my attacker to feel refreshed that he assualted me? WTF? Is this a Febreeze commercial?
    Then we get to the morality....hahahahahahahahahaha, if you guys had any morals you wouldnt be fleecing people with this ****.

    At this point, I'd like to stress that I'm not very proficient at toate-jitsu. So when I do a no-touch technique, its nothing but a ridiculous party trick, a fact pressed home while I was taking photos for this essay. I squared off in front of my uke, and after I stood there for a ridiculously long time, (from the perspective of a real fight) trying to connect to his energy, he started to lose conciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    I thought you said that you would never "act in that way again" Yet you clearly are trying to do so in the photo shoot. Is that the morality part you are speaking of?
    Maybe the guy got bored and fell asleep. He wait a minute...maybe thats why people pass out at weddings!! Some Kung-Fu master is Wedding Crashing and using his powers on these people. Damn those guys are cruel. "Today we go crasha wedding. Knocka outa groom"
    Did I mention that I am not very good at toate-jitsu? I inteneded to make him fall forward so I could catch him. Instead he fell back towards the photo lights. So rather than a dramatic shot of him falling into my arms, you see a sequence of me running to catch him before he crashed into something. On the plus side, he said the experience of receiving my no-touch technique was pleasant, like nodding off to sleep, and free of side effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    This is so full of homo-eortic inuendos that I am sick to my stomach. I will let this paragraph go undealt with.
    Of course, the artificiallity of my performance reveals a common criticism of toate-jitsu. It may work in a demonstartion, some say, but it couldn't possibly be of value in combat because it takes to long. However, I'd like to mention that , while I'm not proficient with no-touch techniques, I have colleagues who can cause knockouts almost instantaneously. More important, even a less dramatic form of toate-jitsu can have startegic benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Artificiality? So you were faking it?
    Who are these "colleagues"? Are they like the umbiquitous "they" which everyone refers too when trying to be vague? Why dont these guys get rich boxing or in MMA? Oh right, because they are fakes.
    For example, I used a subtle form of the no touch technique to diminish anger and diffuse a potentially violent situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    I flew a Stealth Fighter to my Grandmothers funeral. I landed it in the middle of the Cemetary. Amazingly I didnt hit any tombstones.
    What?! You dont believe me? I just told you I did it, isnt that good enough?
    Oh, I see, the guy wanted his money back. Nevermind.
    I should probably respond to dismissals of so called-skeptics and debunkers. They love to say things like "I saw someone try it, and he couldn't do it." Or. "I let someone try it on me, and it didnt work." So what? For a debunker to prove such a thing is impossible, he must prove that it can never be done. On the other hand, for us to prove that toate-jitsu is possible, we need only to do it once and reproduce it a second time. Because we've accomplished that, the real questions are, "What is the mechanism behind the phenomenon?" and "What are the practical values and limitations of the method?"

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    You haven't proven anything. There is no scientific study to back this up. People claim to have been anally probed by aliens......wait a sec.....maybe it isnt extra-terrestrials doing that. Maybe its those fun loving Kung-Fu Masters. Man are those guys a riot.
    The mechanism? Pure dumbass.
    The practicality? None
    With regard to the first question, we don't know what actually happens when a no-touch knockout is performed. We're not suggesting toate-jitsu is supernatural or paranormal. On the contrary, we believe it's an entirely natural event. Currently we operate with a paradigm that says conciousness can manipulate energy both in robust ways ( such as physical movement) and in subtle ways (ki projection). But that could be entirely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    That "could" be entirely wrong? Let me save you some time. It IS entirely wrong. See, now you owe me one. Maybe you can repay me with a shiatsu massage, but only if you took the "heated ki" seminar.
    Some Chinese researchers have reported infrasonic noise emanating from the hands of chi-kung masters. Because sound is known to have the capacity to affect , even disrupt, the human nervous sysytem, that could be the force at work. The fact that we don't understand how toate-jitsu works, however, has nothing to do with whether or not it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Which Chinese researches? Isnt the article about putting this "under the microscope"? Name some sources.
    So now you guys are like Shockwave from The Transformers?



    With regard to the second question-What are the practical values and limitations? It's been observed that no-touch methods don't work on everyone. Therefore, some argue that they're a waste of time to practice and learn and that attention should be paid to "reliable" methods like punching and kicking. But that isn't that like saying that a screwdriver cannot drive in a nail so you should only have hammers in your tool box?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    What?! They dont work on everyone? I havent ever punched someone and not gotten a reaction. So there goes your theory. TADAH!! I have solved you quandry for you. Another massage please
    A better approach is to acknowledge that toate-jitsu can be one of many weapons in a martial artists arsenal. Its useful in some settings and useless in others. In certain situations, it may be the only thing required to achieve victory, and in others, its should be in conjunction with supplemental tactics and strategies-or even ignored altogether. And honestly, I don't consider that a very controversial idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Useless in others? You were sooo close to the truth, I mean close enough to no-touch ko that sucker and walk away the victor. Yet you missed it.

    Here is a new phrase for you......EPIC FAIL.
    Last edited by HonkyTonkMan; 5/19/2008 10:26am at .
  2. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 9:57am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tl;dr.
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  3. G-Off is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 10:08am


     Style: Ronin wannabe

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    An insult to Jedi everywhere. Good write-up.
  4. kultist is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 10:08am


     Style: BJJ, JJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shorter Oldman34: Chris Thomas is a moronic chi fairy.
  5. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 10:13am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, I got bored and actually read that piece of shiturature.


    I have lost at least 45 IQ points (that I didn't have to spare in the first place)

    and will have to go hit people tonight to regain my center.




    Thank you sooooo much.

    :disgust:
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  6. kracker is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 10:20am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    These guys don't actually believe this, do they?
  7. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 10:27am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dont write the news, I only report it.
  8. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 11:25am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Remeber kids: No touch is a 'bad touch'
  9. escrimador6 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 12:07pm


     Style: FMA / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It makes me feel better to know that others have wasted their time reading that crap stain of an article in Black Belt. It really seems like they are trying, each and every month, to be worse then the month before.
  10. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 12:13pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34


    Historical accounts of the no-touch knockout abound. Aikido founder Morihei Uyeshiba was reported to have had the ability to throw students without making contact. In Karate-Do:My Way of Life, Gichin Funakoshi wrote that an important karate figure named Bushi Matsumura once immobilized a challenger "by the intangible force that flashed from his eyes"


    At some point I keep meaning to review Funakoshi's bio. As it is very un TMA'ish and Funakoshi makes fun of stuff like this and dim mak and people tearing sking.

    This is a great misquote and takes it out of context. If I remember correctly it had nothing to do with mystical no touch stuff and just one guy looking more of a bad ass than an other.
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