Armbar from the turtle
I've been studying and trying to perfect my rolling armbar from the turtle. It's become a very high percentage move, either leading to the submission, or, at least, a turnover. I'm also fond of it off of a "failed' double under hook sweep.
But which rolling armbar? I've been taught, done and seen at least a half-dozen variations. I'm really looking for advice on the best versions and the tiny details. They all work if someone leaves the arm out, but guys get pretty good at hiding the arm and defending the armbar.
The worst problems seem to be getting stuck and unable to turn him over and, to a lesser extent, ending up fighting to get the arm when he over on his back.
1. The first version is what I think of as the snatch and grab. Here's sambosteve doing a version:
YouTube- Advanced Sambo Martial Arts : The Rolling Arm Bar Move in Sambo Martial Arts
And a BJJ practitioner:
YouTube- Paulo Guillobel - Rolling Armbar from Opponent's Back
This general type is good when going from standing to the ground, but I haven't found it really suitable for pure groundwork. There's also the snatch and grab element -- you have to get the arm on the move and don't control it before turning him over. But it does have a dynamic and surprising nature. I do it in Judo sometimes when guys start turtled for the amusement value.
2. This next version is from turtle/back mount.
YouTube- Rolling Armbar from Rear Mount
It's a pretty standard attack but I think it has some flaws. I like that it controls the arm, although I haven't played with the particular gripping sequence. What I don't like the position of the leg head near the head. It's easy to get stuck there. I think it's inferior to the next few versions.
3. Next up is the one I try to do most of the time (with mixed results). I think of this as the "Judo" version, simply because that's where I learned it. Ironically, the best instructional I found is no gi video (although the person instructing is a Judo yondan). (Reznick has some great competitive technique videos -- his o soto gari is money).
YouTube- Judo or Jiu Jitsu Armbar from Turtle Technique
This version is great because of the leverages involved and the fact that the arm doesn't have to be out or exposed to make it work. It's kinda nasty to be on the receiving end.
4. Here's a similar version.
YouTube- Juji from turtle
5. And another: Here's another -- notice the difference in when the foot goes from the back to the front of the neck in this and the preceeding videos.
YouTube- Judo Arm Bar
6. Finally, there's also a armbar from the turtle where you grab the arm, get one or both legs over and pull backwards (rather than going forward). It's kind of a power/dick move. You don't make friends doing that one. I never do that version. I couldn't find a video, though.
Am I missing any major variants? Which versions have you had the most success with? Any other tips or tricks?
Here's some competition footage on a variation of the Judo version. The inside leg is used to sweep the uke onto her back where the armbar is finished.
YouTube- Ippon of the Week 32 - LUX v NOR - GB World Cup 2008
1 and 2 are very tough to get I think I landed it once in competition and that's about it.
The rest of them is what I call the post series. I call it that for the simple fact of posting your forehead on the mat. There are some trick to get your hooks in and one thing that I do is use the same hand as the hook I have in to start the move. I think 3 did that.
Most people don't know that you can get the arm bar from the initial position attack. Just try to pull it out while on your forehead. Next when you switch arms you can take the arm at that point. Just use your free hand to stop the roll. Also in order to get the roll off easier pull his far leg across your brow as you roll. I tell people to wipe the sweat off their forehead because they just did a lot of work.
When they are turtled if they keep their head down place your shin on the back of his neck for control. If they pop their head up then place your leg across their face and roll then towards their back instead of going through the whole series.
I refer to Neil Adams a lot but his Masterclass armlock book was my bible in Judo.
One thing I don't see emphasised in a lot of these videos on the Post series is what you do with the non "head" leg. I've always been taught to keep the shin flush with front of you're opponents hips with the instep hooking the far side of their hips so if they try to circle away from you it's possible to follow them. Other than that I thought video three was pretty excellent, it's my go to back attack in Judo and that video taught me several new things.
I've had success with the version that Josh shows, and variants Jimmy Pedro has a very good entry as well. I was on the receiving end of it at a seminar, and it hurt before he even put on the lock!
Originally Posted by Res Judicata
You will need a couple of entries depending on how tight uke is turtled. Pick two and work on them over and over and over again. It is more a matter of how good you are at them. It takes a bit of time to get consistently good at them, and even then, they do not always work.
Thanks for some good advice. I'll be drilling for a while. This move is actually pretty decent against pure BJJ guys -- they rarely turtle tight and always expect (and therefore defend) the second hook.
And Josh, I'm not sure that Adams fellow knows much about armlocks at all. I have no idea why you'd take advice from him ...
YouTube- Neil Adams (GBR) vs Jiro Kase (JPN) [-78kg]
So much good ne waza in the 81 WC ... YouTube- Judo 1981 Maastricht: Kashiwazaki (JPN) - Nicolae (ROM) [-65kg]
Originally Posted by Res Judicata
Here's another highlight reel Adams juji-gatame. Happy?
Originally Posted by Coach Josh
YouTube- Judo 1983 Moscow Adams (GBR) - Farid (ALG)
Generally, the heavy pressure #3 variation is what I try to go for. I tend to like to play a little more heavy and controlling, so the first couple of options just feel to loose for my tastes.
Shin on the back of the neck is key. Something that sometimes happens against other heavies who are long (got a couple around 6'4, 270) is that I can't actually get them turned over easily, even with a good grip on their legs. They just end up getting a little too stretched out. I'll sometimes just take the armbar belly down with heavy shin pressure to the back of the neck.