Hi Matt. Welcome and I hope you brought thick skin with you.
Originally Posted by Matt_C
You say he's widely known in JMA feilds but I don't think thats true. I think he is know in hi small slice of JMA but not in the the whole. Authenticity and Proficiency are two entirely different topics that can be evaluated separately.
Kunio Miyake is actually widely known in the Japanese Martial Arts fields. He is in my estimation one of the most authentic and proficient teachers I have found.
It is a good thing to admit this up front but that isn't going to really help in the scurtiny of this style.
Bear in mind that I was a pupil of his so there is bound to be at least a level of bias out there.
Actually it doesn't. No offense but the world is filled with guys who chose a teacher who is full of Bullshido so this doesn't mean much.
However, the very fact that I chose him to study under might speak in his favor.
That's great! But I have a feeling you probably should have stuck to wrestling.
Not because I am a exceptionally capable individual but I have had the chance to work with world class athletes before in the field of Wrestling. (trained under Olympian John Azevedo where my team as a whole was ranked 4th in the nation and spent brief time with Dan Gable, Kenny Monday, spent time in the European Club system etc.
So have I and I will withhold my opinion because I don't look favorably on the "ke_po" world.
Trained and knew several World Kenpo champions.
I would agree in the wrestling feild but how does that overlap into ke_po? Considering, by your own admittance, you are not a "star'?
Again, I was never a star but I spent enough time training around them that I feel at least capable of recognizing good training programs.
That doesn't mean much in this topic.
Not to mention I grew up in Huntington Beach around the first few generations of UFC, many of whom wrestled at early ages with me and the others fought in the parking lots of many bars and clubs I would at the time frequent.
Based on what? How has Miyake demonstrated that he is on par with an Olympic athelete?
FOR ME, Kunio Miyake's school was a rare find. He is as proficient and technical as any Olympian I have seen.
This doesn't mean much. I spent 9yrs in Japan and later went back to teach english to businessmen visiting the US when I was in college.
He is Japan born. He was an English professor in Japan.
I officially started training in MA when I was 4 (my mom still has a picture of me in my gi then, no you won't see it because I also sport an enormous afro) I am now 34 and I have been training in MA ever since. Not all that training was worth anything. Quality of training beats time.
He spent the vast majority of his life in Martial Arts.
Uh NO. This is BS. I can think of several friends I grew up with who where proficient in several arts and were KNOWN for that. This statement actually doesn't speak well of him. Hell in the last 9 years I have been recognized to be proficient in several arts (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Jujutsu, BJJ, and MMA) and have been on national TV and even written about in books, but thats just me tooting my own horn. The point is that its not rare at all to find someone proficient in more than one art and to be recognized as such.
If you speak with any Karate Man they do not realize he was a Jujitsu Man. If you speak to any Jujitsu man they do not realize he was a Karate Man. This is because it is very rare that someone can rise to such a high proficiency in both arts.
No its not. Law and Medicine are two very different fields. Karate and Jujutsu are not. They are actually two different aspects of the SAME feild. A more appropriate analogy is a lawyer who is proficient in both Criminal and Coporate law.
It is like a really adept Lawyer becoming a very skilled Doctor.
Well its been a very long time since I've trained in Shorinji Kempo but I still know many old kenshi so I can ask about this but the point really doesn't mean much.
He rose very high in the ranks of Shorinji Kempo and was one of the highest level pupils of Doshin So when he passed away but for personal reasons left the association in a very honorable fashion and started a new school over here in America. Where he has trained some very fine pupils and raised a family.
Shorinji Kempo isn't "karate" and which school for Jujutsu?
It is in a way a mix of Karate and traditional Japanese Jujitsu.
I will have to ask about the Tokyo PD since I don't know what their OFFICIAL training is now but SCARS is NOT used by Special Forces. Before you argue with me look at my location and listen. SPECIAL FORCES is the term used for the US Army Green Berets. Civilians are looked at as idiots for using it for other things. SEALs, Force Recon, etc are Special Operations (SpecOps or SOF).
This system is what the Tokyo police department use and is very similar to the scars system our US special forces use.
I have way more than two friends who are former and current SEALs they no longer do SCARs for a reason.
I mention this as I have two close acquaintances that are ex Navy Seals and point this out.
I say BULLSHIT! Why? Can you provide proof of this system being used to kill a person? If not please STFU. Seriously. As for the Samurai, I know a fair amount about koryu (old school ie before the Meiji era) MA and the only way that what you say is true is if this system can link it self to a koryu jujutsu ryuha. If not then this too is BS. Oh and FYI in Fuedal Japan the sword was a SECONDARY weapon on the battlefield. It was used if the warrior lost his primary weapon, generally a polearm, then after that they would use another weapon, like an sashito, to kill their opponent.
The entire system is based on being the most practical form of martial Arts with the point being to maim or kill your opponent as quickly as possible in order that you can move on to the next. It derives directly from what the Samurai of old would use if they lost their sword and horse in battle.
Then why not train boxing? As I said before Shorinji Kempo isn't "karate" so does he have other karate training?
Karate: His Karate is very boxing like.
In case you didn't know, prior to the Queensbury rules boxing WAS bare knuckle. It actually quite easy know to understand what bare knuckle boxing was like.
In my experience it is how boxing would be if it were bare knuckle. There will be fewer punches thrown and you are always attacking weak spots of the body.
[/quote] There is kata in the classes that focus solely on Karate but the Jujitsu classes focus primarily on repetition drills ending with live sparring.[/quote]
Good but does the kata training translate to actual fighting? If not then why?
What I mean by this is that kata was used as a drill and the techniques were supposed to be used in fighting. If your fighting doesn't contain or resemble what you practiced in kata then it doesn't have much value.
For good reason as stated above.
I notice that the original poster sounds a bit down on kata.
kata is a FORM of a drill but not all drills are "kata" in the TMA sense. Other than that I agree.
I never did much of this myself (I would like to do more) but repetition drilling and kata re staples of ANY good athlete/fighter The armed services use it; Olympians spend their life doing them.
Uh NO. There is a "crawl, walk, run" to training and the "crawl" part doesn't last long. I actually have worked with professional boxers (Ray Mercer for one who knocked me on my cocky teenage ass many moons ago, and others like Vernon Forest) I watched them train and I can say that they don' know work slow very often. They might go slow to warm up but after that its is as if they were in a match.
The best way to learn a complex movement is to repeat it very slowly with as many diverse partners as possible and slowly speed it up until you can do it flawlessly at full speed and on the spur of the moment (well that is the goal anyway). If you have ever seen a professional boxer train when not in front of the camera you will notice that often they are moving very slow or barely connecting with the bag...distance and timing.
WRONG! The term means a LARGE collection of techniques used for combat. Not all Jujutsu was used in the battlefield. Several schools, like Asayama Ichiden Ryu, were know for being the method of everyday pple.
Jujitsu: The term martial arts literally mean that it is used on the battle field, anything else, while a noble pursuit is just sport.
WRONG AGAIN! Kodokan Judo was formed a a method of physical culture (ie PE) for the school system.
This is why they created Judo from Jujitsu.
It seems you don't know this. So listen and learn. Jigoro Kano created Kodokan Judo to be taught in schools it was BUDO(as opposed to BUJUTSU) because it was it helped develop a person through rigorous training. The actual effectiveness of an art was secondary in BUDO. Example KENDO came from KENJUTSU but the methods of Kendo does not resemble the methods of Kenjutsu because the tool is different with its own dynamics. This is easily proven by looking at Kendo then any number of schools of Kenjutsu. They are not the same by far. Now Kano, who was adept in classical JJ, wanted to make sure his method could be continuously trained so in introduced RANDORI, which allowed the practitioners to work against fully resisting partners when applying techniques. This turned out to be a very good thing.
I am sure everyone here knows this but it is worth remembering.
BULLSHIT! JJ has ALWAYS been competitive. Tournaments were numerous and deaths, like in any other sport, were rare. It was not uncommon for a lord of an area to organize a tournament to pick a trainer. (This was actually done for several MA) even AFTER the Meiji era tournaments were known. Kano even organized competitions himself to test his method and he came out on top.
Jujitsu frankly is too dangerous to use in competition. They used to do that in Japan and the participants did not always survive.
You have to eliminate the more dangerous techniques. For instance you could never allow small joint manipulation (e.g. wrist locks) in tournaments today as it would simply be too dangerous even though it is one of the more highly effective techniques to use in real combat.
Wristlocks are actually allowed in some tournaments. Also several members here who have trained with me can atest that I have used wristlock when live rolling with them. Mica, a BJJ Black Belt, in Las Vegas is know for his. Now things like fingers are usually disallowed becuase 1) They are easy to break and no one needs that from a competition and b) broken fingers don't impact a fight as much as a broken arm does.
You shouldn't trust anyone who isn't proficient to use them. I wouldn't trust a noob but a higher belt I wouldn't mind.
I would never trust someone I did not train with regularly to use the more effective techniques on me in live sparring.
Why Kunio Miyake's training is so valuable?
Uh based on what? Not all MArtist need the same things. I always chuckle when pple say there master has trained police and "Special Forces" as a means on how "deadly" their art is because the skillset needed for them are very different. I am a Modern Army Combatives Instructor and I have actually trained MPs (Military Police) and elite soldiers, such as Rangers and Special Forces. My training for MPs and other soldiers are different. Where as I would teach "Buttstroke, gain distance, Fire" for CQB I can't teach that to an MP because his role is to subdue and arrest as opposed to eliminate the enemy.
In my limited experience (only 33 years old) there are three categories of technique that a good martial artist needs.
I agree that person needs to be proficient in different rangers of combat but what they need depends on their role.
1. Outside: boxing, i.e. hitting your opponent from a distance that precludes him from being able to do anything but hit you at that same distance.
2. Mid Range: using a technique on your opponent while still standing but close enough to grab if you wanted to that can check mate your opponent.
3. ground fighting: In the event that you are unable to remain standing you can finish your opponent.
Wrong. Again Police are TRAINED to take pple down for a reason. Its much easier to deal with them there than if they are mobile on their feet resisting arrest.
I think all fighters given the option would rather eliminate their opponent but keep their standing position in order to address the next immediate threat. Kunio Miyake's teaching specializes in this area.
Different pple might require different things. This whole "but the person down and remain standing" thing sounds nice but the reality is that whether you remain standing or not is not always up to you.
Let me help you out sense you don't know. KEMPO or KENPO doesn't matter. They both mean the same thing. Romanization is the attempt to match letter combinations to the sounds of a foreign language. Ther are many methods to do this and they don't always agree. DAKAKA JUJUTSU ka JIU JITSU, KEMPO ka KENPO docira demo ii desu.
So Doshin was a Japanese spy of sorts during the 2nd world war. After the war was over he returned to Japan only to find that the moral fiber had ripped. He used his techniques, which he claimed to have learned from the Shaolin monks. His art was named Shorinji Kempo (not kenpo) as Shorinji is the Japanese word for Shaolin in mixture with traditional Japanese Jujitsu to help his fellow countrymen regain their honor.
Not a "hero" but Shorinji Kempo is recognized as both a MA and Religion.
He is I believe considered a folk hero of sorts in Japan.
Thats the American name for it. The actual name is SHORINJI KEMPO and he does portray DOSHIN SO. Also he did did Mas Oyama in 3 movies all very loosely based on actual events. I've actually met and trained with Oyama and I found the moves silly but fun and enjoyable in there on right. I've been a long time Sony Chiba fan. (I've even been TAKUMA TSURUGI for costume parties)
Their is even a movie where Sony Chiba stars as Doshin So called Killing Machine. The movie is worse than the title by the way and the techniques are not well don’t in my humble opinion. But it is kind of funny and a nice story.
I seriously doubt this for several reasons.
Kunio Miyake out of ( I presume respect to distinctify his school and the fact that it is the culmination of his knowledge) calls his art "Kempo Aiki-Jujitsu". Sensei Miyake’s school is no frills and less marketing. Instead his skill speaks for itself I am sure to the detriment of his notoriety.
"Kempo Aiki-Jujitsu" would sound odd.
There has only been ONE art to use that term historically, Daito Ryu, and even that school is looked on with a skeptical eye because there isn't anything using the term IFIAK before Takeda.
So far we only have your word to go on and its not very convincing when looked upon with a knowledgeable eye.
Well, this is a long answer to a short question. In my opinion though the martial arts field is rife with charlatans but Kunio Miyake is the real thing. I urge the original poster to not let what sounds like a bad experience with your friend sully the reputation of a really gifted teacher.
Uh NO. That is a fairy tale. Why? Let me tell you about so called "Yakuza bars." A Yakuza establishment can literally be anything. The yakuza is big and can take many forms. For instance you might have a member of a family who isn't the "gangster" type run a local establishment, like a restaurant, and the clientele will mainly be regular pple. Same with bars and even video game arcades. I know this because I worked at such a resturant and the arcade my brother and I used to frequent was frequented by yakuza. Also the dojo I trained Kyokushin at had yakuza members. Now for someone to cause trouble dilberatley at an establishment would be stupid because not only would the person gamble on the fact if there was yakuza even there in the first place they would risk pissing off pple that would come after them in mass until they feel they regained their honor.
1. So Doshin was notorious for conducting his black belt tests in Yakuza bars. This is widely known and accepted. The Yakuza bosses thought it was a good test for their men as well.
Nice but doesn't say too much about the art. I know some 50+ pple who are badass. One of my BJJ/MMA trainers for one. Also when I was in France years ago I met a then 55yr old man during a wedding reception, he was the father of the bride who was marrying a french man. Almost everyone in attendance was a MArtist ins some form adn we turned the dinner into a impromptu MA demo/contest. After tossing pple around Mr Kondo came out and did the same. We matched up and we were at a deadlock. I was fit, strong, and competitive. He was a godan in Judo adn kept in shape. He was strong as hell and his technique was excellent.
2. Dan Gable's students told me that it took him about two hours to warm up for a practice where he would actually participate but once warm he would wrestle a number of his more talented team members and win each match to show that he still could. In the same way on my best day I was not able to defeat the 50+ year old Sensei Miyake.
Not completely true. There has been one art that has always been touted as an effective, practical form of SD for decades, and still used as the basis of programs for those who actually need to use such skills on a regular basis even now, and that was JUDO (still called JiuJitsu during the early parts of the centuray because a) it another form of Jujutsu and b)the terms were used interchangeable then) If you read old books and articles on SD during that time you will see that Judo is mentioned often. To paraphrase one person if you wanted to find a good Karate or KF school you first ask the Judo guys.
3. Karate was all the rage in the sixties, Kung-Fu seen as the ultimate authority in the Seventies, Kenpo a bit later. We have our own flavor of the month now but in the end the really effective techniques are very similar.
What we have now is a RETURN. Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is the rage now because it reintroduce pple to effective methods of training much like Judo did before.