I'm still waiting for everyone's favorite inbred Ji Do Kwan "master" to chime in with his usual bullshit:
"Hey guys, don't have a lot of time to write because of all the book/ movie/ record deals I've gotten, but I'm gonna post this picture of an envelope I got in the mail the other day with the return address blanked out. You all would be VERY interested in its contents!"
"You see, this isn't about me, this is about a man who found Jesus and became a police chaplain after having ridden with outlaw bikers. You know, DDMC, HAMC."
"OK *****, come to my school in the Fine Arts building. You can ask cnybody in there where it is, they'll tell you."
"Waahhhh, Fwoyd wanna fight me in iwwegal fight!"
"Waaahhh, I'm calling the FBI, FCC, CCR and CIA on you Samuel!"
"That Frank Dux is a stand up guy."
"Frank Dux is a *****!"
"Barron Sheppard called me on the phone like a real man."
"Barron you coward!"
Weird as it may sound, I do kinda miss the little guy and his unintentional trolling. Cwissy if you;re reading this, you always brightened my day with your witticisms. It's too bad I fucked up that Black Belt interview for you- you know, the one that was never going to happen anyway.... :dark1:
unfortunatelyt it looks like if things are as said Chris may have graduated from trolling.
Originally Posted by wascal
Daimon, shall I lock the thread now with your summery reprinted as the last post?
yes sam it is time... make sure you use the second italicized summary that was edited. After Wascal's post
Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
Not before I get a last word in; About Fucking Time!
It's just crazy that this story involved Count Dante, Ashida Kim and Frank Dux. Now that's a story!
And thx Dsimon for mentioning Matt Kiley and Timmy too, lol. Cracked me up.
This thread is being locked and transferred to the classics section.
Originally Posted by Dsimon3387
Final edit! with spelling check!
02-15-2008, 04:02 PM "Finished up in court it was a good day today."
When Floyd Webb posted that information to start "the Aguiar" thread he probably had little reason to suspect exactly what would start... This thread took on a life of its own and became, not only a way to document the story of a man and his movie, but part of that story itself.
Floyd's desire to see a project through, documented in video, is also documented in this thread... in both there are moments of sadness and moments of triumph and a whole lot of humor.
Accordingly I will give background information and refer any one to public records in Massachussetts for the decisions that have been put fourth in a court of law.
Count Juan Raphael Dante (born John Timothy Keehan in Chicago, Illinois, 4 February 1939, died 25 May 1975) was a martial arts student of Robert Triase. he was both mythological and diabolical. He was one of the first teachers to allow minorities to learn martial arts and he was allegedly part of major crime syndications of various sorts. Nobody had done a movie on this man.... Floyd Webb decided as an independent film maker to take up this task and hence we have the infamous...... "Aguiar Thread."
Dante's chronology was split in two factions: on the one hand you had Dante's early time, and a considerable amount of the time he spent on earth, in Chicago. From this time were his family (he was raised in Chicago) and a major part of his martial arts history. Dante had been a student in Chicago and a teacher. Later in his life Dante went to Massachussetts and established a school and a following. Specifically this took place in Fall River Massachussetts with the considerable aid of the Aguiar family and other individuals who will be discussed shortly. The singular event which split Dante's life was the dojo storming incident that saw a student & friend killed. The specifics of this event are best discussed in a history of Dante, not in this thread recap, but perhaps THE ONE THING all parties in Chicago and Fall River agree upon, is the hurt Keehan felt when this incident took place and the impact on his future.
After this incident Dante went on to develop schools in Massachussetts and do other endevours, not always legal enterprises, but Dante was never really the same. It should be noted that Fall River and Chicago would characterize Dante's activities very differently. In Chicago it was generally understood that Dante the martial artist prodigy had suffered and that he was not at his peak when he left town. In Fall River it might be said that Dante concentrated at this point in his life with building his empire: a conglomeration of businesses, martial arts schools, the loyalty of his followers, and power based on dark evil energies.
With that brief recap of Dante's fate, it should be noted that the tone and tenure of this thread is such, because of alleged hostilites between a group of individuals in Fall River Massachussets and the connection of Dante to the martial arts community in Chicago. Dante dabbled in the dark arts, military matters, business matters and of course was perhaps the first to sponser full contact fighting to an audience... While in Chicago these accomplishments were considered the work of an intelligent martial artist with a knack for charisma, in Fall River it was mythological, it was Dante the hub at the center of an amazing wheel of enterprises.... from drugs, porn and women, to hair dressing!
Chronology: To detail the minutia of this thread would be a case of not seeing the forest while looking at the trees. I have chosen to chronicle the thread with distinct epoches for each section of the thread.
a) Webb the wandering film maker.
Floyd Webb decides to go to Fall River against the advice of Chris Pieschela. Chris is advising Floyd at the time. depending on who one speaks to this advise is substantial, or it is trivial. Floyd goes down and meets with Billy Aguiar, John Creeden Junior and his father (Creeden senior). A deal is worked out for film footage showing Dante... the deal sours. People are insulted. A good deal of the first part of the thread deals with threats, including legal threats and we are introduced to a few characters who will post regularly: The central antagonist is Creeden with Floyd being the central Protagonist.
1) Floyd Webb. the film maker.
2) Billy Aguiar. Billy is the son of William Aguiar and the alleged head of the Aguiar line of the Black Dragon's Dante fighting system. Billy decides that he wants a lot of money for Floyd to access Dante's info, Floyd wants to see the materials first. No deal is made
3) John Creeden Junior. Creeden and his father have a copy of footage that is offered for sale. The deal is consumated but goes sour, chaos ensues.
4) Coach Barron. Coach Barron wanted to buy certain materials and aid the film and produce other materials. He makes an arriangement with the Creedens and the deal goes sour.
The thread goes on and on at this juncture about this deal and the legal issues that will result, vis a vis legal threats. Along the way Fall River starts to declare war on Chicago and to question the legitimacy of any other claim on Dante. Billy Aguiar tries to reaffirm that he is the head of all the Black Dragons, as the sole heir to the Fall River branch, which starts our next major thread issue:
b) Will all the Black Dragons please rise?
At this point the issue becomes "who is entitled to the name of the Black Dragons?" We are introduced to the international Black Dragons and Van Stoeffal (spelling) We learn that Van Stoeffal has requested that Aguiar speak about copyright issues and that he has been rebuffed. Enter...
Ashida Kim. Who is brought out as an example of using Dante's name inappropriately. Frank Dux also is mentioned in passing as the thread turns to Fall River claiming that all the other organizations that claim black dragon status are not the real Black Dragons and are only using Dante's exploits. This part of the thread will allow the students of certain Chicago luminaries to come into the thread. These individuals tend to be on the whole well spoken, pleasant and informative.... look for "Vern, MIke" and others of this ilk.
Finally we have Billy Aguiar saying he is the survivor, and it has to be said that his credability to claim such is percieved as almost comical: this man looks out of condition, does not present any recent videos of practice, nor any students (more on that in a moment), and only wants to claim the name because of his father's affilitation to Dante. His claim is countered by an international organization full of practicing martial artists, with meetings & events held regularly. Credability is really never established in either camp.
We also learn that a good deal of Floyd Webb's work has involved speaking to these Black Dragons and that many of these individuals had a training relationship to Dante in Chicago, a few of them were part of the event precipitated by the dojo storming.
C) The Creeden Clan: Up to this point and subsequent we are introduced to "Jawney" a character from the area of Massachussetts where Dante came to stay. Jawney it turns out is the son of Creeden Senior, a martial artist, journalist, soldger and... perhaps a man with connections! Creeden senior does not make an actual appearance on the thread but it has been determined that he was a legitimate and constructive presence... his son on the other hand was to become the central villian on the thread.
It is brought to bear that Creeden junior enabled the deal with Aguiar to be compromised, that he egged Aguiar junior on into an unwinnable fight with Floyd ( the court case was predictable), and that he creates a whole cast of alliases with such colorful names as Matt Kiley, Timey, etc. There are allegations that Creeden made calls to Coach Barron's elder mother and Creeden's Blog becomes a rallying point for people who are less than happy with the Dante thread on bullshido and Floyd.... all five of them.
At this point people like John Patricio, an intelligent and thoughful childhood friend of Billy Aguiar are being ridiculed by Creeden junior. The issue is always with Aguiar, one of betrayal. Aguiarr, at this point in the thread along with Creeden, has a picture painted where he stands alone uncomprimising while others try to betray Dante and take his life works... But alas there is on the thread little sympathy for this song and dance. Aguiar put out no film, no book and no school showing that he continued this tradition.. Aguiar is subsequently percieved on the thread at this point as trying to dismantle the work of Floyd and Creeden is seen as an enabler for his efforts. People will call Creeden on not even showing up for court dates to support his supposed pal Billy Aguiar. Creeden junior will claim that Billy is not his friend here and that he has his own reasons. In a word the situation becomes confusing...
We now have aliases of Creeden claiming legal precedents, Sam Browning comes in to comment on these occasionally, we have people from the Black Dragons commenting, coach Barron states his point of view and the thread looks like it is achieving a point of diminishing returns. During this time the thread is moved out of the investigation section on Bullshido as it achieves critical mass and starts to eat at itself, collapse under the weight of it's own absurdity.
d) Ymas here we come!!
Moving this thread to the comedy section has what was perhaps, an unintended consequence: namely the thread picks up new life. As more people start to comment we have the introduction of new theatrics, new hyperbole, alais no real new developments... the thread seems to understand that the court date is ground zero.
e) Chris piescala was a student of a man who ran in the same circles as Dante. Chris had been suggesting to Floyd such things as "not to go to Fall River", whom to speak with, and some of the more nefarious Dante connections to be probed. We learn that Creeden junior and Chris have a visceral exchange in which they basically agree to a fight to the death... at some point they begin to realize that they are both privy to information about Dante that is in their minds exclusive. Chris winds up casting aspersions on Floyd's motivations and much hillarity ensues. Chris will eventually go to Fall River and consumate this relationship with the Creedens but in the meantime on the thread he argues that essentially "I know what my teacher told me and it is the same as John shared with me... we both understood that only we could know those things." With this declaration Chris becomes a seond prong to the Creeden attack.
Chris claims that Floyd is lazy, indolent and does not appreciate his help.... it is determined on the thread that Chris is grandiose, thinks his information is more important to Floyd than its actual value, and some suspect that Creeden junior may be enabling him as he did Aguiar junior.
So we have challenges made, including Floyd eventually agreeing to fight Chris, and none of these challenges come to pass.
Eventually after Frank Dux gets dragged into the thread on account of phone calls made and challenges issued, and more than a few others are subject to the same challenges and calls.... It is decided that Fall River has no intention of gong sauing anyone. Creeden is accused of being real polite when cornered and then talking **** when the person is at a distance. People settle into a quiet contempt for Chris, Jawney and the rest of the Fall River gang. Chris claims at many junctions that his faith and vocation has been threatened, Many posters angrily call him a hypocrite.
But alas the court case was no suprise... Aguiar had to settle and let Floyd use, under fair use, most of what Floyd wanted to use in the first place and was not given two nickels to rub together. Fall River claims that other suits will come... which could mean more threads.
Floyd claims to have progressed and to be ready to put some real work behind him. Floyd claims never to have been derailed by this travesty.
Dante was the kind of person that had contraversy follow him around. Not surprising that this thread played out like it did.