I've again, "reached out" to the professor. Comments are in ( ).
Below is correspondence to Carter on his site:
My comments to your site. Personal experience here Carter, unlike yourself for the most part, except TKD.
4. Ju Jitsu (gentle art), Japanese Dr. Jigoro Kano is also considered the father of modern Jujitsu- Good for- self defense, one on one. Not good for tournaments or sport but can be adapted without the joint and bone breaks. Good art for all ages and works well into old age. Minimum flexibility.
(BULL - depends on the school and the instructor with the most emphasis being methodology of training.)
5. Judo: Japanese in origin. Founded 1882 by Jigoro Kano at age 22. Judo is good for sport and tournaments but not general self defense. All ages can perform it, but throws tend to get hard on you as you age. Medium flexibility is therefore required.
(You know nothing of judo. I'd take my kids judo training over all others for self defense at a young age. It only gets better with experience. Again - you know nothing of judo.)
8. Aikido (way of mind / harmony): Japanese in origin, founded in 1942 by Morihei Ueshiba. Aikido is good for self defense to a point. Generally there is no striking. It is not for tournaments. However, it works very well into old age. Only minimum flexibility is required.
(Bull again. You've probably never taken an aikido class in your life. The ability to defend oneself with aikido is again directly proportional to the way it's trained.)
10. Tae Kwon Do (way of punching and kicking): Founded in 1955 by General Choi Hong. It is Hi-Korean in origin. It is good for sport, tournaments and sport art, but not for self defense. Tae Kwon Do is for the young, as older practitioners tend to suffer from knee and joint problems. Flexibility is a must.
(Go ask He Il Cho how effective TKD is when trained hard into old age). Your shodan at kiddie age is not a valid perspective Carter).
14. MMA: Mixed Martial Arts: No claimed origin.MMA is not a system in that it uses no guidelines form, or ranking progression. Good for wrestling around with a sweaty guy in a cage for competition or one on one self defense. Not good for multiple opponents.
(Utter garbage again Carter. What makes this any less effective against multiple opponents?)
You sell rank by LARPing video tests. My opinion is that you're in it for the money only as you and your students are a joke in the state of Oklahoma.
Go ahead and send your process server Carter. You were invited to a thread and chose threat instead of backing up your claims. My attorney will have a field day exposing you.
If you have a valid certified rank beyond shodan, for which you actually trained and did not just pay for the rank, it will be easily determined in court.
hungryjoe (you know my name and where I live)
Carter Hargrave's personal email address is [email protected], he has 111 domains registered to him, ALL self promoting. http://whois.domaintools.com/realkarate.com
Contact information for all 111 domains is:
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74152
Domain Name: REALKARATE.COM
Created on: 24-Nov-99
Expires on: 24-Nov-10
Last Updated on: 24-Dec-09
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74152
9187421354 Fax --
Tulsa, Oklahoma 74152
9187421354 Fax --
Domain servers in listed order:
I am completely and utterly unfamiliar with "self defense" systems of martial arts. But I would really really reallly like to get some footage of some of Hargrave's "upper" belts sparring. I feel like if you were to throw any of this stuff in a ring with an opponent of similar size and experience, the fallacies of the system would come out and there would be a terrible display of buttrapery.
As stated by another user earlier in this thread, Once you shoot your wad, all that "Do X if Y happens to set up for Z" crap flies out the window. One of the best things about Full contact Sportfighting is that after a while, you get familiar with the adrenaline dump of a fight.
If anyone really really wanted to be ready for the kind of stress an adrenaline that a self defense situation brings, you would think they would want to test it out once in a while and see how it works. I see absolutely no examples of implementation in Carter Hargrave's system. At least with the hand and feet strikes. Just my two cents.
O ya and Carter is a hack.
MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) History:
The MCMAP was officially created by MCO 1550.54 as a "revolutionary step in the development of martial arts skills for Marines and replaces all other close-combat related systems preceding its introduction." MCMAP comes from an evolution dating back to the creation of the Marine Corps, beginning with the martial abilities of Marine boarding parties, who often had to rely on bayonet and cutlass techniques.
During World War I these bayonet techniques were supplemented with unarmed combat techniques, which often proved useful in trench warfare. Between the world wars, Colonel Anthony J. Biddle began the creation of standardized bayonet and close combat techniques based on boxing, wrestling, and fencing. Also during this period, Captains W. M. Greene and Samuel B. Griffith learned martial arts techniques from Chinese American Marines and brought this knowledge to other Marines throughout the Marine Corps.
In 1956, at Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego, Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Hayward (captain of the judo team at MCRD) made Gunnery Sergeant Bill Miller the new Non-Commissioned Officer in Charge of Hand-To-Hand Combat. Miller was ordered to develop a new curriculum that a 110- or a 210-pound Marine could use to quickly kill the enemy. Miller created the program from various martial arts styles such as Okinawan karate, judo, and jujutsu. Every Marine recruit that went through MCRD was instructed in Miller's Combat Curriculum. This also included Special Operations Forces from all branches of the military and civilian entities. Later in 2001, retired Gunnery Sergeant Bill Miller was awarded the Black Belt Emeritus "for pioneering Martial Arts in the United States Marine Corps."
Eventually these different techniques evolved into the LINE System in the early 1980s. Later, the system was found to be lacking in flexibility and techniques for use in situations that did not require lethal force, such as peacekeeping operations. The Marine Corps began searching for a more effective system. The result was the Marine Corps Close Combat training Program implemented in 1997–1999. MCMAP was implemented as part of a Commandant of the Marine Corps initiative in summer 2000. General Jones assigned Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol and Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso, with almost 70 years of martial arts experience between them, to establish the MCMAP curriculum to be taught at the Martial Arts Center of Excellence (MACE).
Do you see any mention of "Carter Hargrave" here? Seems like another claim by the great master has been disproven. So Hargrave, where is proof of your system being the basis of MCMAP as displayed on 13 of your websites?
Also I have the official MCMAP (MCRP 3-02B) document if anyone needs a copy. Its non-classified direct from the source. Let me know.
Hargrave - Feel free to subpoena me anytime! This information is direct from MCRD and I have a recruiter who specializes in MCMAP lined up to testify if I need him! Combined with the knowledge from others in this forum your gonna be in for a serious ride. So maybe its time for YOU to explain your self to a Jury. You have my information! Fire at will.
I am working on getting the ATT credentials from an Air Marshal now!
I was pre-LINE and did not experience anything remotely Hargrave in boot camp or the subsequent couple of years + stationed at the Infantry Training School, Camp Pendleton.
We had a group that practiced martial arts, meeting twice a week. This was a very diverse group, made up of officers and enlisted personnel. Many were TAD from other infantry units, assigned as instructors to infantry training units. Nothing from Hargrave there either.
That, with the post above from frogninja, puts Hargrave's claim as BS unless he created the system while still in his father's nut sack (in my opinion Carter).
Just got an email back from my Air Marshal buddy, he says that the "designers" of their CQB course where actually KAPAP/Krav Maga Instructors. He says that there is no mention of Hargrave ANYWHERE within their training documentation, but he couldn't share the contingency documents with me or his training manuals. So I cant post those. Also, I have completed a page by page search of MCRP 3-02B, LOTS of history on the subject and unbelievably NO MENTION OF HARGRAVE ANYWHERE WITHIN THE DOCUMENT! Offer still stands if anyone would like to review this doc.
Wow! This guy is so full of himself. There are only five successful JKD insructors and he is one of them? I didn't realize I was being ripped off when I was training in Jeet Kune Do! I never trained with the guy but, I still feel bad for anyone who bit into his claims and paid him money.
I bought the first level of his system several years ago (when VHS was cool). I thought the techniques might be very useful, if you can convince your assailant to stand perfectly still.
On the issue of whether or not he is a fraud, the question is whether it can be proven that he is promising something for which he is being paid, and then knowingly not delivering. Obviously, easier said than done. On the other hand, if you can prove that he is not delivering, but can't prove he is in bad faith, one could possibly have a colorable claim of breach of contract. Not a crime, and you would be entitled to a refund, or some other reasonable measure of damages.
His emails threatening lawsuits reveal that he has not, in fact, retained counsel. Or, alternatively, he is ignoring the advice of his counsel. Since the email appears to be a form that he sends out to anyone who raises his ire, I am convinced the former is true. Any credible threat would come directly from his lawyer.
Since he has put so much effort into making himself a public figure, the standard set in NY Times v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964), would apply to any defamation action. Essentially, in order to prevail, he would have to prove that joe (or whomever) had the subjective knowledge that his statements were false when he made them. Nearly impossible to prove, and probably irrelevant since joe's statements amount to a rebuttal of Hargrave's own claims, which Hargrave refuses to substantiate.
*These are my opinions, and may not be completely accurate. Any statements made herein should not be construed as legal advice. If you need legal advice, you should seek the services of a competent attorney.