I would say that you should have a solid understanding of Kesa Gatame variations, transitions, submissions and escapes from there, no matter what you think of the position. Hon is good for the pin, and there are a couple of solid submissions possible from there.
If you develop a good Kesa, it'll only benefit your training partners. They'll develop a good defense in response. Then you might eventually find it's sometimes tricky to transition from Hon, which is the only reason some describe it as a "dead end".
I don't know of any particular material online. I learned what I know from a couple of specific teachers who were quite old school, and I've only seen some of the transitions to subs in print. That doesn't mean they dont' exist online, you will have do do some searching. You could post what you find hear for discussion, I think that would be useful.
Originally Posted by Auszi
In any case, my point of view is that it's good to know a basic set of transitions from position to position, how to maintain top control (pinning, essentially). Then you can work on taking advantage of opportunities for submissions that arise from uke attempt to escape. In Judo, you have to escape the pin or you lose (in competition), so things can get a bit more desperate than perhaps in BJJ, and thus open up more chances to nail uke (with an armbar or choke in Judo).
Basics of Hon Kesa Gatame
You will either mellow with age or continue to be more of a dick and get better at it!
Originally Posted by jnp
I try to learn from everyone, it's not a bad attitude to have.
I use it if that is what I can get. In Judo, it's easy to end up in Hon Kesa Gatame because of the normal gripping configuration and throwing, although with practice you can end up in almost any position quickly.
Originally Posted by goodlun
In normal "rolling", though, it's more a matter of taking advantage of what you are presented with or have manipulated your opponent/training partner into and going from there.
It's not a matter of spending a whole bunch of time, really, however, I'd defer to high level BJJ teachers on what is best to teach in BJJ.
Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
If there is not a lot of opportunity, then it won't take much time to learn the possibilities and the basics of the position.
Your point is noted though, as for example, I don't spend a lot of time going over endless variations of Mae Sankaku Jime (the normal "front" triangle form guard ), because of the same reasons. However, I have seen the benefit of studying it to my students directly in terms of greater awareness of possibilities. I had taught the Yoko (side) triangle turtle turning stuff for quite a while, and when they got exposed to the front triangle via BJJ, they actually started doing triangles from all sorts of positions.
So I have been hunting for this when I am rolling, it's actually a fun position to go for.
I have found though that I end up more often than not with my arm under their far arm rather than under their head (Hon?).
I found these videos from a youtube search.
I used my rear leg to push my weight onto the uke(Can I use this word? it's convenient) and he tapped just from the pressure, you could hear his breathing change immediately.
I liked this video for the detail about bringing the uke's arm up under your armpit and holding with your arm pressure not with your hand on the elbow.
Though he does say to not lift off the back leg, which is different to Erik's instruction.
And this one also seemed like it was useful material.
I believe hon kesa gatame exists because it's a good and natural landing position for throws. On a purely groundfighting level it's useful but sub-optimal. I go there a lot myself because I enjoy it and I get some taps there, but I wouldn't risk it in a competition setting. The few times I've had skilled Judokas on top of me in this position, it felt like they were holding their weight a little differently to a BJJ player: They could put more pressure on me and make it extremely difficult to escape, but they'd also have more trouble going for submissions with that particular pressure style. So you either go for immobilization and find it difficult to finish, or you go for submissions and open yourself up for the back take.
So my answer is "train it if you like throws."
I only have four or five years grappling experience so I will defer to anybody more experienced than myself.
I think Kesa Gatame is underutilized in BJJ. At the the same time I think we can all agree that generally speaking the less your hips are facing your opponent, and the more your back is turned towards your opponent, the more difficult it is to control/attack(i.e. kesa, reverse half guard, reverse mount, reverse KOB). That simply means you will have to put more time in to avoid having your back taken then say regular side control. But that's no reason not to train it. Just be mindful of the risk/reward ratio.
Originally Posted by Auszi
I think it is important to be as well rounded as you can be. You will hear guys like marcelo say that it's not ideal, but Marcelo does not like arm bars, or head and arm chokes either. And he doesn't have to, he's marcelo. Us normal folks need everything submission/position that we can get.
One question though, how much do you weigh? Generally speaking the contemporary wisdom in BJJ is that lighter you are the less effective the top game is in general. (i would love to see a study on the number of wins that are by hold down in high level judo by the lightest weight classes) Guys like Dan Faggella preach that statistically speaking, if you are a light weight you should be focusing on back takes and when possible avoid pinning positions. After my measly 13 years in BJJ I can say my experiences generally matches his statistics (for bjj).
I am now 100kg (Ideal weight 88 - 90)
Originally Posted by RandomTriangle
I tapped multiple times to this last week as a BJJ bluebelt. Maybe at the higher belt levels everyone knows the perfect counter to this hold but i sure as hell don't.
It was worse than any knee on belly I've experienced, i tried slowing down my breathing and then my coach shifted his weight again and the pressure went up further.