Well as the Jamaican med student told you, the soreness is just a side effect that company inflammation. The inflammation is the healing part (he called it remodeling, there is some anabolic processes for sure) after you worked your muscles. If you worked them over a certain point you will feel sore (a part of the inflammatory process is the release of certain stuffs that makes your pain nerves to become extra sensitive), it is subjective of course as all pain studies. Must you feel sore to improve? probably not, but again from my and others experience..."no pain no gain" .
Oh and probably reduce the workout you are doing that pains you so much that you limp the next day, maybe split it to two days. Besides, here is an original thought, have you considered Box jumps?! or jump rope with a little weight added? Sometimes for some reason certain exercises just don't agree with us and cause us tremendous amounts of pain and discomfort where as other exercises working on the same fucking muscles don't, think of switching to another exercise that works the calves.
Lindz don't be such a sissy. If it's not sore the next day, you probably could have lifted more.
Well, that's because you a bitch, son. For real. You are squatting, you're supposed to be lifting big heavy **** that is fucking with your ability to stand afterwards (if you don't have any plans for later or whatever). If you're going after muscle gains you have to hit that **** hard.
Originally Posted by Lindz
There are several reasons that a ************ can have his squat numbers increase without accompanying muscle strength the most common of which is that the muscle groups used are becoming accustomed to the work out. If you switch up your workout to do some **** that works the same muscles in a different way: bam! DOMS like a ************. Secondly, you may feel that **** and be able to walk it off. Don't motherfucking discount that **** you feel.
As for articles linking DOMS to gains? The ****? You expect me to Google Jedi an article about a vaguely defined entity? ************ you do that ****.
Muscle breaks to rebuild and ****, you have to stress it to rebuild it, pain comes with rebuilding. From this reasoning, if you are going hard and gaining strength, you will feel some soreness.
Stop being a motherfucking ***** and lift some more heavy ****.
Thank you everybody much appreciated. I'll try throwing some other workouts in there like you guys said (box jumps, jump rope with weight etc) and thanks I just wanted to make sure it's safe i'll probably lighten it a bit cause I gotta beable to walk in the school hallways now lol. Thanks for all the info also.
Originally Posted by elipson
Not if I failed during that session
Question, you made the claim you provide the proof
As I said before, **** that ****.
Originally Posted by Lindz
I gave you the rationale, then I suggested that the existence of such an article for a poorly nailed down entity is not likely. As such, I'm not going to motherfucking look. If you don't want to consider that ****, then be my motherfucking guest son. Just make sure you hit that **** hard and go all the way in. Otherwise your returns may not be as good as anticipated.
Everyone else needs to shut the **** up and pay attention, because Lindz is 100% correct.
Originally Posted by Lindz
Are you training to get sore? No. You're training to get strong.
You can get stronger but not sore from training.
You can also get sore but not stronger from training.
You can get both, and you can get neither.
In the strength and power world, soreness isn't a useful signal for anything but soreness.
Stay focused on the outcomes that actually matter, namely strength.
On the subject of box jumps, plyometrics, etc....
Plyometric box jump
-Concentric (jumps up, climbs down)
-Develops explosive power
-What matters: Height gained by your center of gravity (you can do the same thing without a box at all)
Plyometric depth jump
-Eccentric then concentric (jumps down, jumps back up - stretch-shortening cycle)
-Develops explosive power
-What matters: how quickly and forcefully you rebound
Conditioning box jump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UweKybOuivA (0:10-0:15 - "jump up, step down")
-Concentric (jumps up, steps down)
-Develops general and special conditioning
-What matters: Total height gained by your center of gravity (approx. reps * height of box if you stand up at the top) and mean horizontal velocity (total height/time)
-Doesn't require a box; you can do the same thing with a flight of stairs
-Don't jump down when you're doing high reps
I'll explain more about that last bit in a separate post. There will be math.
On why jumping down on high-rep box jumps is a bad idea, consider me starting standing straight up (0), then jumping and leaving the ground (1), landing on a 1m box at the peak of my jump with hips and knees bent (2), standing up straight (3), jumping back down and making contact with the ground (4), then decelerating to a full stop, either with knees and hips locked out (5) or with a significant dip (6).
g (gravitational acceleration)
= -9.81 m/s^2
= -9.81 N/kg
At the start, h0 = 0m and v0 = 0 m/s
E_p0 = m * g * -h0 = 0 J
E_k0 = 0.5 * m * v0 ^ 2 = 0 J
So E_t0 = E_p0 + E_k0 = 0 J
At the peak of my vertical leap (when I am getting my feet on the box), h2 = 0.5m and v2 = 0 m/s
E_p2 = m * g * -h2 = 490.5 J
E_k2 = 0.5 * m * v2 ^ 2 = 0 J
E_t2 = E_p2 + E_k2 = 490.5J
Going back in time to fill in some blanks, at the instant I leave the ground (feet plantar flexed, hips and knees extended), h1 = 0.15m and E_t1 = E_t2 = 490.5 J (conservation of energy)
E_p1 = m * g * -h1 = 147.15 J
E_k1 = E_t1 - E_p1 = 343.35 J
v1 = (2 * E_k1 / m) ^ 0.5 = 2.62 m/s
f01 (assuming constant for simplicity) = E_t1 / h1 = 3.27 kN (735lbs) - about 3.3x bodyweight
When I am standing straight up on top of the box, h3 = 1.0m and v3 = 0 m/s
E_p3 = m * g * -h3 = 981 J
E_k3 = 0.5 * m * v3 ^ 2 = 0 J
E_t3 = E_p3 + E_k3 = 981 J
When I touch the ground on the way back down (feet plantar flexed, hips and knees extended), h4 = h1 = 0.15m and E_t4 = E_t3 (conservation of energy) = 981 J
E_p4 = m * g * -h4 = 147.15 J
E_k4 = E_t4 - E_p4 = 833.85 J
V4 = (2 * E_k4 / m) ^ 0.5 = 4.08 m/s
If I keep my hips and knees roughly extended, I will reach a full stop at h5 = 0m and v5 = 0 m/s
E_p5 = 0 J
E_v5 = 0 J
E_t5 = 0 J
E_t45 = E_t5 - E_t4 = -981 J
h45 = h5 - h4 = -0.15m
f45 = E_t45 / h45 = 6540 N (1470lbs) - about 6.5x bodyweight
Notice how much more force is being applied to my achilles tendons on landing than on takeoff. But what if I don't land like a stiff-legged idiot? Let's say I dip my center of gravity another six inches below starting position: h6 = -0.15m, v6 = 0 m/s
E_k6 = 0 J
E_p6 = m * g * -h6 = -147.15 J
E_t6 = E_k6 + E_p6 = -147.15 J
E_t46 = E_t6 - E_t4 = -1128.15 J
h46 = h6 - h4 = -0.3m
f46 = E_t46 / h46 = 3.76 kN (845lbs) - about 3.76x bodyweight
Well, that doesn't sound so bad, does it? Sure, except that if you watch the third video I posted where the demo folks are jumping down, they aren't dipping even close to six inches upon landing.
When your landing forces exceed the maximum concentric (takeoff) forces you can generate by multiple body weights, it's time to rethink your approach.
First and foremost, the slightest hint of attempting to speak as though one were an adult in this forum is appreciated. I don't give a flying **** if you cuss, but if your posts contain ONLY cuss words and nothing of value, you can expect them to be moved.
Originally Posted by The Question
Second, Lindz is correct and The Russ is very correct. While DOMS and muscle/strength gain are often correlated, there is no evidence to suggest that this correlation is a necessity. You can gain muscle and strength without experiencing soreness. Conversely, you can also experience soreness without necessarily having stimulated any gains. They are loosely correlated, but their causes are different and based on so many interdependent factors that no relation between the two of statistical significance can be drawn.
For all other quality information in this thread, see The Russ' posts.