The whole, "to Do, or not to Do", makes absolutely not a grain of difference. GM Sin has always said he added the Do...after he came to America. Bruce Lee, who studied Wing Chun, which is Chinese, made a philosophy and called it, Jeet Kune DO. So what? Why not, Jeet Kune Tao?
The simple answer is...nobody cared then, and nobody cares now. GM Sin has always said, he created the method for fundamentals, i.e., the materials in question, from what he was taught, which is from the Shaolin training he received. He didn't invent front kicks, side kicks, block ups, etc., he simply came up with a fundamental building block method, to teach his students.
Much like Wing Chun, which several masters created, distilled from the Shaolin, and then implemented to become a well respected Chinese art.
The school in Indonesia was called " the Central Plains Shaolin School", I believe.
GM Sin and Hsiang both teach identical fundamentals. The material was reviewed in Indonesia by GM Ie before they began teaching it here, and he approved it. He also didn't have a problem calling the style Shaolin Karate Do. The Chinese are pragmatic...who cares what the name is if it makes it marketable? It's still the exact same stuff no matter if you call it **** on a shingle, roundhouse, etc., whatever.
GM Sin, as do most, loves the legendary stories and exploits of GM's in the martial arts. He grew up with them. So what?
GM Ie travelled extensively to study other styles and incorporate them. That's in keeping with the tradition he was raised with. GM Sin is one of the most intelligent people I've ever met. He came to this country barely speaking English, to study Nuclear Physics. I tested out of high school in the ninth grade straight into college, and I can't comprehend going to China to even study basket weaving, let alone Nuclear Physics.
The point being, GM Sin has an incredible memory and capacity for learning. So he admits he can only remember about 300 forms...wow, what a scumbag! I've also seen him reviewing hand written notes and diagrams when teaching his higher curriculum for the first time. Admittedly, it was 30 years ago, and I haven't seen him reference anything since. He explained it by saying it was like getting a masters degree, and then going back years later to teach the class....who wouldn't need a refresher? So what?
I've seen him do things with my own eyes that other martial artists cannot do...even though he's in his sixties. Hell, I can do splits, train 6 days a week, whatever, and I can't move like he does! He is tremendous, very kind, and no...he is not making a fortune from this. Does he like to tell stories of martial artists performing almost majical frets? Yes? Do we love them and wasn't to hear them? Yes! If you don't, shut the hell up and leave the man alone.
As far as SD practitioners being good martial artists....yes, there are good and bad. Just like any other style. It really is up to the individual.
That's why I keep saying, train harder talk less. I personally feel anyone who is constantly trying to find fault should worry about themselves and their own training.
There you go....rant on. I'm in the middle of riding my recumbent bike before getting on my versa stretch, typing on my iPhone.
I think Listen Up is missing the point. This thread is about the years of lies that Sin The' has told. He is on tape and quoted in his own book saying things that directly contradict his own sworn deposition. He either lied for years or in the deposition. Most likely it's both. This not a little white lie or an exaggeration. It is building a house of lies to build / protect your business. It is not honorable, respectful or acceptable in anyway. His skill has no bearing on the issue at hand. Let's assume Listen Up is the baddest man posting here. Well good for him. His own hard work got him there - not listening to the lies Sin The' has told over the years or the quality of his instruction.
Everyone has their own interpretation of what the point is. It seems to me the point is: GM Sin is fake, his style is fake, his teaching is fake, he's a horrible human being, Shaolin Do sucks, it's practitioners suck...and so forth and so on, ad nauseum.
Am I missing anything? This is my humble opinion of all the hub bub.
So...keeping in mind that this is my viewpoint, I can only give my observations based upon 40 years of personal and direct experiences. I am not a former CSC disgruntled student.
I love the way GM Sin teaches, love his personality, love the art, love the vast amount of material...always something new and exciting to learn and apply.
Is GM Sin perfect? No. Who is? Is he one of the best I've ever encountered in over 40 years, having trained with many, many notable martial artists, in various locations? Yes, without a doubt. Is the material he teaches credible and applicable? Yes. I'm currently playing with snake and dragon pakua...and loving it. The full body mechanics and explosive power can be applied to anything! I am using it for boxing and kickboxing training, and it's increased my power, speed, and explosive quickness dramatically. So...does it work? Yes. Does hard training and diligent pursuit work? Yeppers. That is what it takes in any athletic endeavor. Is GM Sin a world class martial artist? You're damned skippy he is! Is he one of the nicest, kindest, gentlest, sweetest guys alive? Yessiree bob. Do I hate it when I see a bunch of malcontents bashing the man. Oh yeah.
Yes, and none of this refutes anything in the documents. Thanks though, I do like knowing that all of this anger is built up and you need an outlet.
Originally Posted by Listen Up
Ok Fake...let's put it to rest.
Maybe I'm going to the core instead of going one by one.
What exactly about the documents means anything at all?
The point about creating lower belt curriculum?
We have discussed that, means nothing. We all knew GM Sin did that for teaching purposes, so that is moot...therefore any conclusions or speculations regarding that are moot.
Are you talking about the whole Shaolin name? His certificate says Central Shaolin School diploma, circa 1963 or some such. I am not looking at it, so if I got the name wrong, sorry...who cares? The whole Do at the end? Again, too small of a point to have any merit. The Grandfather thing? In China, the people often call totally non related people "Grandfather", or "Elder Brother", or "Little Sister". My daughter studied Chinese at U of L, and lived and studied at University of Beijing. They called her, "little sister"...but I'm pretty sure she ain't Chinese.
Please tell me what point exactly you keep talking about to draw such opinionated posts about someone you barely know and have never spent time with? I know him. I've spent a lot of time with him, and that's where my points are coming from.
Fake I am not angry. That is too strong of a word. I guess I have a more, "who the hell are you to character bash anybody?" kinda feeling.
I actually think this is your outlet for feeling duped by CSC, but that is also just an opinion.
As far as GM Sin's ability as a teacher...really? The comment that any skills or abilities are self-attributed gets a big fat...well, DUH, from me.
Fine, let's put it to rest.
It is called interpretation. If a president can be bashed by random nobodies on the internet so can you, I and Sin The. You and I will not see eye to eye on this matter. My opinion is well known, except when it is twisted to fit your anger, which is exactly how I will interpret many of your comments.
Recant and Admissions? Sure, tell me what I need to recant.
The fact I said the East Coast SD contingent produced fighters?
That Sin The was skilled?
That if I had to train SD it was on the East Coast or not at all?
That I felt parts of the art were legit?
That there would be no issue if the tie to Shaolin was never promoted?
That there were never 900+ forms?
I said all of this before, during, and after you posted. My only issues, which I have stated repeatedly, are that he made up forms, attached historical lineage, and that the history is BS.
For me, and others for that matter, my interpretation is proven by the answers contained within that document. Now, if that hurts your feelings and makes me dishonorable for seeing it that way *shrugs* I could really give a ****.
I see it as dishonorable to change the history of your art, tell students it is a FACT, and possibly offer styles you didn't learn or know for marketing purposes. There are thousands of students, that had been defending the art, that just went "are you fucking kidding me?"
As you said no one is perfect, but it doesn't entitle them not to receive heat for some poor decisions. Go ahead and defend him all day, threaten to beat me black and blue, hope I show up so you can send me on my way, and any other insult you can produce. Your actions will not change any words in that document or how I see them. Nor will any of those actions make me shut up.
Actually you said, "he made up the art, and the deposition proves it", a few posts back.
The parts made up, were distilled from longer forms he was taught, the methodology of which GM Ie reviewed and approved, and which both he and Hsiang teach to this day.
The lineage...I don't know if it's been embellished. I'd say, say yes...based upon GM Sin's admissions. Does that mean your conclusions that it's all hogwash are valid? Nope.
Have you taken your opinions and twisted them? Yep. Please refer to first paragraph.
Have you strongly insinuated that the training is hogwash? Yep.
Have you said that there may be some "decent", to "good" fighters in SD? Yep. ( be still my foolish heart at such lavish praise! Decent to good...wow. Kinda sounds like very lukewarm affirmation, but, it is your opinion and it probably hurt to type it.
Do you have any personal experience with the training or studying directly under GM Sin, especially as it was prior to the CSC? Probably not.
Does all your personal experiences stem from training under the CSC. Probably.
Does GM Sin possess a huge personal library of notes, charts, diagrams, etc. on 900 forms.
Dunno...maybe. He does have a shitload. Can he teach them effectively? Yep. Does that mean that everyone comprehends them and can perform them properly? Nope.
Because they can't, does that make it bullshit? Nope.
Are you entitled to your opinion? Why sure. Do I agree? Nope. Do you have even one iota as much personal experience with the subject matter that I do? Nope...not even close.
Are you making a mountain out of a molehill? Oh hell yes.
Why am I wasting my valuable free time responding? Dunno...just hate to see a good man get bashed. I hate to think that anyone places any credence in this kind of blatant foolishness.
As far as beating you black and blue...who knows? You may kick my ass. I don't know you...and you don't know me. I'm willing to respond to anyone who thinks I'm a fake, or that my teachers are fake, with direct, uncompromising contest. I may lose, I may win. Either way, my opponent will come out of it with absolutely no questions as to my training. This is exactly how the martial arts have been, for generations. You insult me, you insult my art, you insult my teachers. The proof is in the pudding...
It really is up to individual effort. The training, the intelligence, the inherent physical abilities, that make the whole. I was lucky to come up in Shaolin Do in the 70's. Training was hard, uncompromising, and my teachers taught by example.
Some people within GM Sin's organization are not very good. Some are exceptional. This is true of any art.
Is the tie to Shaolin legit? Is Wing Chun legit? Jeet Kune Do? Shotokan Karate? Tae Kwon Do? Shorin Ryu?
Etc. etc., they all claim origins to the Shaolin Temple.
I believe GM Sin teaches what he was taught. Has he added material along the way? I would think so...Taichi 24, for example. So is teaching it wrong? No. GM Ie openly travelled to incorporate material into his system. So what?
Again, this means nothing. Should GM Sin never tell stories or spread legends? Nah! We like them!