Hey, guess what time it is.
Basically what IiF said.
JJJ has things to offer that BJJ doesn't. However, people who want to learn BJJ are not going to get it from JJJ. So, why care.
I train with a stick guy who got his weapons training through JJJ. Our training is alive and pretty much has DBMA blended all through it. So you can't call it JJJ any more. But the point is, he wouldn't have got that training through BJJ.
Just depends on what you are looking for. BJJ no longer really looks or trains anything like most JJJ so there really is no reason to honor them per se. Kind of like how American Football doesn't give credit to it's Rugby roots.
Originally Posted by Timmy Time
"Japanese Ju Jutsu" doesn't exist or better said, there are two versions: Gendai and Koryu.
Koryu is for the schools that predate the Meiji Restoration.
Gendai is for the schools that postdate the Meiji Restoration.
In the Meiji period the Samurai class in Japanese society was abolished, so Koryu schools are considered Samurai schools.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu comes from Judo, which itself descents from (the unarmed part of) two Koryu schools: Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu.
Since most Koryo schools focus on the Samurai warfare techniques they are primairly weapon based styles instead of empty hand techniques, therefor they are trained in kata form (free randori with katana's wouldn't be the best idea for keeping your students in one piece).
Gendai Ju jutsu is just a mix of Karate, Judo and Aikido with the best part removed: randori.
It's also more an Euro-American creation than a Japanese creation and where all the styles postdate the creation of BJJ. It was never an ancestor of BJJ.
So if a BJJer wants to learn about its heritage, he/she should learn Judo. If he/she than wants to learn more, it would evolve travelling to Japan to learn several Koryo arts that using drills and kata, where the focus doesn't lie on fighting, but om preservation of a past way and personal development.
If you want to learn a decent Gendai Ju jutsu style, there are two ways to go:
- look for a Ju Jutsu club, where the members spar and enter tournaments (Sport Ju Jutsu)
- train Knockdown Karate, Judo, Aikido (Yoshinkan or Shodokan) seperate.
Trad JJ can have effective techniques that are only safe to be trained through compliant training. Pain based come a-longs, certain locks and so on and so forth
BJJ doesn't really touch on these
Having said that without live training to conditioning fight or flight, fast twitch reflexes and adrenaline dump - plus getting somewhat used to getting hit and thrown.
Complaint training is useless, whereas alive sport training is useful in RSBD scenarios.
this. I started grappling in a style of JJJ and it is what got me into judo and bjj. I am able to hit a lot of the wristlocks and other "JJJ techniques" in randori or rolling now for one simple reason: Judo.
Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs
Learning how to grip fight and throw teaches you how to grip fight and throw. The better I get at judo the better I get at JJJ even though I haven't trained it in years. Simply because Judo is what JJJ became.
Freestyle sparring was popular in Meiji-era Jujutsu schools well before Kano. I believe the story goes that Kano gets his Menkyo in Kito Ryu when his teacher cannot throw him anymore in randori, isn't that right?
Originally Posted by cualltaigh
It is really a bit of a red herring to say that BJJ comes from Judo since BJJ has de-emphasized virtually everything that was in Kano's original synthesis, and focuses primarily on Ne Waza that Kano imported from a single JJJ school after Judo was well underway.
Can something be a bit of a red herring?
Really? I could have sworn that Judo was entirely compromised of JJJ techniques. All of which were from separate ryu that Kano incorporated.
Originally Posted by Matt Phillips
Yes. If it's misleading, but only moderately so.