Okay, so me and my fuckin' lady friend have been watching that show, Doomsday Preppers, because we enjoy laughing at crazy people who think things will happen that will basically never happen.
HOWEVER, the show can be informative in the little tidbits it delivers about what FIMA advises for the average home. Example: they recommend a home have a store of food to last six months in case of emergency. I'm inclined to go along with that. If there were to be some major power or fuel crisis, that'd be mighty handy.
ANYCRAP, so I've been trying to get her to let me have a gun for a while now. I'm a fan of handguns, though rifles are fun too, but it doesn't matter because up until now she has been resistant. While watching this show, there was a group of preppers who refused to keep guns, and the show's experts chided them for this decision, and just as she was grimacing at this fact, I pointedly delivered the line "I bet everyone, even those who totally hate guns, would be kicking themselves for not having one in an emergency situation."
SO SHE AGREED! When we get a house I get to keep up to FOUR GUNS. I just wanted one! But she threw out that number and I went along. Now I get one for each hand... BOO YA! Here are the caveats:
1) They must be kept in a safe in the basement along with the emergency food.
2) I can only take them out for cleaning and test-shooting purposes. (I can finagle that to be more often).
3) I can't teach any future children how to fire them.
4) One has to be something she knows how to use.
So, I have my ideas. I was thinking 2 pistols, a shotgun, and a rifle. But I'm not in the service or anything, so I thought I'd get your opinions. Money is not a real object, she's graduating med school debt free.
Here are my selections -
The factory 18+1 capacity of the Glock 17 plus it's wonderfully light frame makes this a stand-out must-have for me. It also feels great in hand and I'm a decent shot with it.
The Ruger seems like a seriously reliable little shooter, and with the pinky grip it might actually fit in my hand too if necessary. I think it'd work nicely in hers, though, and with it also being a 9mm I don't have to keep another type of ammo in the house. I think the pinky extension might be necessary cause when I shot one it was without, and it kept pinching the bottom of my hand. Annoying.
The Mossberg has a great pedigree and I figure with the noise it makes when being cocked, I hopefully wouldn't have to shoot it should there ever be a potential reason to. Here's hoping not. As for the stopping power, I'd think you can't do much better.
I got to shoot a similar model of Sig rifle - again, owned by my buddy - and I rather liked it. 6" group from 30 yards which is probably pretty bad but I haven't shot rifles since I was a kid, and back then it was .22's. Other than that I don't know much about rifles, especially of this variety.
Okay, now feel free to tear into me with lots of making fun that goes over my head.
Glock is a very reliable pistol that will do everything expected of it.
Ruger though...well...not as good, but still better than a Taurus. If this is for your wife as HER gun, meh. Take a look at the Sig 225 (otherwise known as the P6) it is a single stack 9mm with lots of safety features. It is all metal and larger than your Ruger but my wife actually LIKES her gun - it doesn't take much convincing to get her out to the range.
Mossberg shotty. I have to ask why? I have like 4 shotguns but can't remember the last time I shot them. It really serves no purpose if you have a good rifle. Don't imagine yourself breeching doors with it, and don't kid yourself into thinking it is going to be better for home defense because of that "sound" it makes when you put one in the chamber. Guns are for killing people - not scaring them. The only time they should know where you are in the house, and what you have is that split second before the muzzle flash on anything OTHER than the shotgun. I say this because it is my OPINION that a shotgun doesn't cycle fast enough, is too long, doesn't have good cartridge capacity, etc to make it good for home defense. I am not going to be pie'ing corners in my house with that mostrosity - just too easy to get into a struggle with that thing. Shot gun for hunting? Check! Shotgun for shooting at cars? Double check! Shotgun for rounding out an already dizzying arsenal? Triple check!
AR15 platforms. Wow. Talk about an expensive habit. The options are dizzying. The optics are EXPENSIVE. Add furniture, magazines, ammo, flashlights, etc and you are easily getting into the $2k+ range. Yeah. It's fucking ridiculous. Especially if you already have 2 and are now going through the ATF to register an 8" barrel 300 blackout with a suppressor...why? Because you absofuckinglutely NEED one ... if you have everything else ...
BTW none of the gear you buy will take the place of range time and practice. I would kill you in gunfight without much effort. Because I go to the range all the time. I am extremely familiar with my weapons. My suggestion would be to get a rifle and a pistol ASAP (don't wait for the house) and get to the range ASAP. Get some INSTRUCTION! Maybe go to a tactical class. Because quite honestly WHEN doomsday comes there are going to be a lot of guys running around with firearms who don't know how to use them - that is dangerous on many levels. Don't be one of those guys.
What do I suggest for starters? 9mm pistol + 10 boxes of ammo. Both of you go to the range and shoot 9 boxes. If you are still alive, she has not gone into silent disapproval mode I would suggest buying a couple of magazines and getting someone you know/trust and get some instruction.
Why would your second pistol be smaller than the first? Are you thinking of concealed carry? If not, you might as well buy something at least as comfortable to shoot as the primary handgun.
If the second handgun will be for your wife, ostensibly, you might as well take the money you'd spend on a shotgun and get a 4–6″ barreled, double action .38 Special revolver (Smith & Wesson K Frame or equivalent). I love my M1911A1 clone in .45ACP, but a service size .38 Special revolver is stupidly easy to shoot well. Depending on your wife's physique, there may be a great advantage in that her gun wouldn't need to have a slide racked as part of the loading procedure. The ammunition I'd recommend for said weapon is Remington's version of the “FBI load:” model R38S12. If your wife is particularly sensitive to recoil, the Federal “NyClad” is an old favorite: model P38MA.
Having said all that, I'd worry a lot more about the location of the gun safe than I would its contents (at this phase of planning). If you and yours are in mortal danger, a trip to the basement doesn't sound like a good idea.
EDIT: If it was me, I'd have a CZ-75B in 9mm Parabellum and a 4–6″ barreled, double action .44 Special revolver (Smith & Wesson N Frame or equivalent). Bear in mind that I hate Glocks and like big, heavy bullets.
I'll just get down to brass tacks here. This is a "minimum" set up, and should be treated as such. It's also for a SHTF scenario. There's a couple schools of thought about how to treat ammo within your arsenal, but I'll get to that later.
I personally do not like Glocks. I can shoot very well with them and they're accurate pistols but I hate the grip angle and the lack of an external safety. There's the whole unsupported chamber thing and other various sundry items that make me dislike the Glock.
Originally Posted by Gabetuno
BUT! In 9mm, if you like it, it's an accurate pistol and rock-solid reliable. That and it's a common handgun. You'll have no problem finding spare parts and extra magazines if something goes wrong. This is a concept I'll be coming back to again and again. If something goes wrong with your weapon, you need to be able to fix it or replace it and in my opinion you're better off fixing it, because it's your weapon; you understand it's little foibles.
I'd vote no on this one. IMO when SHTF there's no point in a concealed carry piece in a minimum preparedness loadout. I'd agree with YrKoon and Rob on this one. Replace it. Rob's advice regarding a revolver is pretty good, but I'd go with a .357. You can still load .38 special in it and it can eat .357 as well.
Originally Posted by Gabetuno
Unlike YrKoon, I see no problem here. This is an opinion thing. I like shotguns for their utility. Plus with shot you have a little bit of compensation for nerves in a high-stress situation and can work well in a tactical situation if everyone has a pre-defined role. However, the person with the shotgun will not be able to 'reach out and touch someone', so it's better as part of a multi-person team rather than a pair. (Read as: Find some other crazies you trust to team up with.) The Mossberg 500 is common, so replacement parts will not be a problem and ammo should be plentiful. Alternatives include the Remington 870, the other super-common pump action shotgun in the US. Or, as YrKoon has suggested, a second rifle instead.
Originally Posted by Gabetuno
Again, no problems here. The one thing to watch is to make sure you get an AR with 5.56x45 stamped on the receiver. This means that the receiver has been designed and tested for the higher pressures of military ammunition. It will still fire .223. (The opposite is true for 7.62/.308. You want .308 there. But then again you didn't ask.) Koon is right in that ARs are expensive, but spare parts are, once again, common. If memory serves, the AR is THE most common rifle in the US.
Originally Posted by Gabetuno
No need for that.
Originally Posted by Gabetuno
OK... ammo. I mentioned earlier that there's two schools of thought with ammo. The first is what you sort of seem to be doing now. You make ammo and perhaps magazines common across all your weapon platforms. As a matter of fact, I HIGHLY encourage that if you decide to go this route, make sure your magazines interchangeable between your weapons that use the same ammo. This assumes that you have a large amount of ammo and perhaps reloading equipment so that you won't run out of that particular kind of ammo. There's nothing wrong with this, but you HAVE to have large amounts of ammunition if you're doing this. You should anyhow, but if you limit the ammo you can fire in this way it is absolutely imperative that you not run out. It also limits you to one 'pool' of ammunition. However, 9mm is a common round so there is that going for you.
The second school of thought, and the one that I subscribe to, is to get weapons that go across common ammunition calibers. If you're scavenging at some point and find some ammo it does you no good if you don't have something that shoots it. The downside here is that if you lady friend runs out of pistol ammo you can't just toss her a mag. She's done shooting until she gets more ammunition or finds a new weapon. My personal collection right now has, among other things, a springfield XD in 9mm, a 1911, a .357 revolver, a scoped bolt .308, an AR in 5.56mm, a 30-30, and a mossberg 500. Extra mags for every weapon (even the .308 takes mags. They're just small. As well as speed loaders for the revolver.) and a lot of ammo for each firearm.
Another place where YrKoon is absolutely correct is in range time. It is an absolute must for you and your "fuckin' lady friend". Without it, all this is moot. Build proficiency, learn to move in tactical gear and how to do small unit tactics. Otherwise, nothing personal, but I'll be adding your equipment to my own if we run into each other once the SHTF.
First you should try to get your balls to drop. Does your mommyfriend tell you when to tinkle too? I guess if some demon limited me to four guns I'd go with:
A 12 gauge pump for hunting. You can't beat the versatility. Stock up on a variety of shells and you can hunt everything from doves to elk.
An AR-15. It's a good service rifle and you can find ammo everywhere. When the zombies come you can take ammo off the dead cops. Also, the "gun" is the lower receiver so maybe you can get an extra upper or two and sneak in some additional capabilities without Genghis getting too mad. Maybe an M4 upper and a scoped long range upper.
A Glock in .45. What can I say? I love 'em. They're great pistols.
A Ruger 10/22. You can stockpile enough .22 ammo for a lifetime for cheap. You can kill small game with it. You can even kill deer or people with it in a pinch if you can shoot. The .22 long is my favorite cartridge of all time.
If you're trying to prepare for the apocalypse, why don't you get an AK 47 instead of an AR? The AK is MUCH cheaper to operate and maintain, and would probably remain functional longer during the apocalypse. You can get one for only a few hundred bucks from J&G Sales.
Devil brings up an excellent point here. .22LR is SOOOO effing cheap. It's also something to look at in terms of increasing range time. When you have THOUSANDS of .22 rounds lying around it's an easy thing to shoot a lot of them.
Originally Posted by Devil
My opinion is maybe an AK in addition to an AR but not instead because the AR's accuracy makes it way better for hunting and zombie sniping if you need to use it that way.
Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
Some more thoughts based on things said in this thread.
Rob, I love my CZ75. Absolutely love it. Mainly because it is so damn accurate. I think that people who aren't Glock fans but who ARE 1911 fans like the grip angle of the CZ75 and feel comfortable shooting it. That being said...after about 2k rounds I have had 2 consecutive out-of-battery failures. At first I thought it was the ammo or the mag or something. But went to the range today and had an identical failure after the first round. This gun may be getting replaced if I can't fix it. Broke my heart. My second favorite pistol (but favorite 9mm).
The Ruger 10/22. Why don't I own one? I have no answer. I own 2 tactical .22lr and love them. I think it stems from the fact that I have a pump action winchester .22lr and a Browning take down as well. That is like 4 .22lr's and I haven't figured out how to justify a Ruger 10/22 to myself. But they are a DAMN FINE gun and anyone looking for a SHTF rifle should own one. A guy could hunt for years with one and $20 in ammo.
The common AK misconceptions: They can fire when full of mud and they aren't very accurate. Case in point - my dad brought his to the range today. It is brand new. Fucking thing kept locking the bolt back with the last round in the magazine. Did it like 4x. And the stupid magazine was really hard to get seated properly. Couldn't imagine trying to do while someone was trying to kill me. That being said after blowing through a magazine getting used to the weapon I took 10 shots at 300 yards with iron sights. 7 out of 10 hits on a standard qual target. Iron sights. In comparison I brought out an AR with an Eotech and hit 9 out of 10 at 300 yards. Don't be fooled AK's are more accurate than you think, and less reliable than people want to make them seem.
That being said I can't believe I sold mine. Still pissed. AK ammo is really cheap right now and my 300 blackout ammo is fucking ridiculous expensive.
Final point for original poster. Buy quality. Don't buy the cheapest piece of **** you can. Think of your first gun purchase like it will be the only one you will ever own. You don't need a Wilson Combat 1911 with night sights, etc. But don't buy a Hi-Point. If you can only afford $500 right now then maybe save up til you get $700 and get something REALLY nice. Unfortunately the more guns you get and the more you get into shooting the word "nice" becomes relative.
She shot the P229 at the range as well as a similar Ruger to the one I posted, and she liked the Sig less. That was my thinking behind the picks.
Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
I agree 100% on the range time. I'm applying the pry-bar method of winning this argument, where I start with the guns which then necessarily requires me to run them at the range, otherwise what's the point? But all the range time I've had has been with a buddy's gun or rentals, and I want to get familiar with my own system, thus the choosey shoppy fun-time.
I selected the shotty because I thought buck, as someone else mentioned, would be a good compensation for nerves. I'm not in the military and I never intend to be, but I have no illusions about what shooting at someone who is shooting back at you must be like; I suspect it's the difference between sparring a heavy bag and sparring a person X 1,000, give or take. I also thought it would be versatile, including as a stilt for the side of my house. :p
I'll consider some more thorough instruction, though. I've sort of been winging it up until now, and there's that nagging voice in my head that's always saying "I bet you're doing so many things wrong." The couple of times I've had lessons up until now, I've always gotten complements, but we rarely get into the details since I'm fairly green.