Discuss.

The koryu bujutsu I've watched/read instructional material on and seen demos of consist of a great deal of atemi.

Any opinions on the effectiveness of koryu jujutsu atemi as opposed to focused striking arts?

Does judo (and aikido for that matter) suffer from a lack of atemi?

Those are pretty broad questions. And, please keep in mind things change over time. Also, any one answering your question can only speak from their own experience, or from their own textual research into documents from history which clearly identify the use of atemi in one era, and possibly show its continuance or its absence of use in the next era.

As far as Aikido is concerned, photos from the 1930's show atemi in Aikibujutsu (pre-Aikido) as it was practiced by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. It was used apparently as a preparatory move to destabilize the opponent before a take down or control move. Looking at the 1970's five volume publication Traditional Aikido by Morihiro Saito, it also shows a continued use of atemi as a preparation to a throw or control move.

The 1930's in Japan saw an era of active militarization, techniques could then be expected to reflect their combat form. After 1945, the pacification of Japan occurred because of the severe negative effects of militarism on the nation. This influenced how people looked at combatives -- you get a lot of "conquering yourself" talk, and now, in talking with one Aikido man I know, he practices a form (derivation) of Aikido that emphasizes avoidance of combat to such a degree he said, "If you get into a fight you've lost." And, he meant not that you've lost the fight, but that you failed in non-violence/peace. I suspect other schools remain closer to the original core body of techniques and that atemi is practiced.

So, what era are you looking at? And, what branch of Aikido are you looking at? Chronology and context really do count.

*Honesty in advertising -- I am not an aikidoist. I just do a lot of home work. My degree was in Asian History, and it remained with me over time. Others on the forum might help clarify your questions by their practice. And, better educated people might clarify this chronolgy for you if it is necessary.

Whoa! Aikido and Judo are in no way Koryu. Koryu are generally considered pre Meiji restoration martial arts. Even iaido is generally not considered koryu. These are all gendai budo. http://www.koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html
...just saying.

Atemi is generally designed as a setup for transition into another movement. Saying that, Gozo Shioda used to use an ippon ken that many would argue was quite a focused strike.

My aikido school has atemi included, and taught specifically, in almost every #1 variation of our techniques (moving toward partner). Atemi is done in a specific way for a specific reason to help with each technique.

Yes, I think atemi is important in aikido. Maybe less so in Judo if your in a clinch already...but if your starting from a kamae in judo I use atemi sometimes.

Judo has atemi. But it still suffers

YouTube - judo kime no kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvxJYM_LsHw&feature=player_embedded)

YouTube - Goshin Jitsu (1º Parte) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRuShMdNSnM)

Judo has atemi. But it still suffers

)

Kime No Kata techniques are from koryu ju jutsu. From what I can gather from the latest thread at Judo Forum, the techniques are probably from Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and possibly Sosuishitsu Ryu.

As such, they are not "modern" striking techniques, and have to be looked at in the context of their time of origin.

My understnding is that modern versions of Kime No Kata to Kodokan standards tend to be a bit weak, so take what you see with a grain of salt.

Ben

Judo has atemi much in the same way Karate has grappling: it's theoretically in the katas, but almost no one actually practices it, much less train the techniques in an effective manner.

I don't think Judo suffers from lack of atemi. Boxing has extremely limited tools and as a result tends to teach the best punching out there.

Whoa! Aikido and Judo are in no way Koryu.

I am aware what koryu are... koryu jujutsu =/= judo or aikido.

EDIT: As mentioned previously am considering hontai yoshin ryu (which includes more than jujutsu in its syllabus).

From what I can gather from the latest thread at Judo Forum, the techniques are probably from Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and possibly Sosuishitsu Ryu.


Sosuishitsu-ryu? Really? I thought that TJSYR was the only atemi influence on Judo. Please post the link to the JudoForum thread you were talking about.

Those are pretty broad questions. And, please keep in mind things change over time. Also, any one answering your question can only speak from their own experience, or from their own textual research into documents from history which clearly identify the use of atemi in one era, and possibly show its continuance or its absence of use in the next era.

Thank you Captain Obvious. :)


As far as Aikido is concerned, photos from the 1930's show atemi in Aikibujutsu (pre-Aikido) as it was practiced by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. It was used apparently as a preparatory move to destabilize the opponent before a take down or control move. Looking at the 1970's five volume publication Traditional Aikido by Morihiro Saito, it also shows a continued use of atemi as a preparation to a throw or control move. Daito ryu still maintains a lot of atemi in its kata.

Then again, compare Kato Shigemitsu (footage available all over the internet) with Katsuyuki Kondo (again, easily obtained on youtube or elsewhere). Kondo's kata is less focused on atemi and largely focuses on nagewaza.


So, what era are you looking at? And, what branch of Aikido are you looking at? Chronology and context really do count.Apply only to koryu jujutsu/taijutsu that survives today which include atemi. Original era unimportant (so long as its not recent enough to disqualify it as koryu).

Captain Obvious.... Heheeee. :-)

I always wonder when people ask about this “atemi” question from a historical & logical perspective.

So “koryu-trained” members within a ruling military caste system, the bushi (samurai) who were documented to have sliced people open with swords for not showing them the proper respect - had any inhibitions within their unarmed training regimen for not punching people in the face or kicking them in the groin?

Richardson and Camus death photos (1862)

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20604&highlight=Samurai+photographs (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20604&highlight=Samurai+photographs)

Ko-ryu Jujutsu Atemi-waza fell into 2 categories. Either used to soften someone up to execute a throw (most of the time) or is some rare ryu-ha used in conjunction with hidden weapons (like iron knuckles). It doesn't even remotely compare to modern boxing/kickboxing arts.

Think of Ko-ryu Atemi as a supplement to the grappling techniques.

Take Tomoe Nage, the Ko-ryu atemi would be "kick them in the groin and execute throw." Judo took out the "kick them in the groin" part in order to allow them to practice it safely. Doesn't mean their art suffers, kicking someone the groin isn't a hard skill. In fact you can argue they are better at executing the throw because they don't depend on the groin kick, which forces a better understanding of off balancing.