I keep noticing a common thread that many people here feel this is a low percentage move that is highly ineffective. I have done some "looking about" and I think I see the problem.

Lets look at two VERY bad examples.

YouTube- Waki Gatame (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mPUGJwG-Dg)

YouTube- judo club gardanne: waki gatame (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzZcz9Ba5Fc)

Now, lets look at the basics from the Kodokan:

YouTube- Waki Gatame (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fWh3hopvBY&translated=1)

(Notice at the end how it is used in Shiai, and why its now banned.)

Now, who wants to comment on the major differences in the video?

Oh, here is a clue, the principles of the cross body arm lock apply to waki gatame too.

Let me put it this way: Waki Gatame as I've been taught it is a low percentage move. We have a jujutsu club attached to my judo club, every bloody combo we practice there seems to end in a retarded Waki Gatame that requires uke to pause after their last move and be completely compliant. I imagine this is most peoples experience of the lock, as it doesn't really get taught as a randori move.

Also, is it really illegal, or is taking somebody down with their elbow locked what's illegal? If you did Waki Gatame to somebody who was trying to turtle would it be OK?

Let me put it this way: Waki Gatame as I've been taught it is a low percentage move. We have a jujutsu club attached to my judo club, every bloody combo we practice there seems to end in a retarded Waki Gatame that requires uke to pause after their last move and be completely compliant. I imagine this is most peoples experience of the lock, as it doesn't really get taught as a randori move.

Also, is it really illegal, or is taking somebody down with their elbow locked what's illegal? If you did Waki Gatame to somebody who was trying to turtle would it be OK?

Did you look at the three videos with the context of the answer to your question? The problems are there to see, and correct.

Yes, it is really illegal to lock a persons arm and take them to the mat with it. I would not have said it were it not so. Sato is seriously injured in the video.

Waki (ushiro waki gatame) against the turtle is very effective, more so because turtles are much tighter in the real world than the ones you see in seminar clips.

Yes, it is really illegal to lock a persons arm and take them to the mat with it. I would not have said it were it not so. Sato is seriously injured in the video.

I wasn't trying to say that you said something incorrect, I was just asking for some clarification. You said Notice at the end how it is used in Shiai, and why its now banned. and I wanted to know if you meant just that particular way of using it, or Waki Gatame in general.

Oh yeah, and to answer your original question about the videos. It looks a bit like n one they've got their weight armpit-to-armpit, to allow them to pin uke more solidly, and in the other they've got armpit/ribs to elbow which puts more pressure on the elbow.

I wasn't trying to say that you said something incorrect, I was just asking for some clarification. You said Notice at the end how it is used in Shiai, and why its now banned. and I wanted to know if you meant just that particular way of using it, or Waki Gatame in general.

Oh yeah, and to answer your original question about the videos. It looks a bit like n one they've got their weight armpit-to-armpit, to allow them to pin uke more solidly, and in the other they've got armpit/ribs to elbow which puts more pressure on the elbow.

The new rules are if the joint lock is applied standing you have to stay standing. It it is applied on the mat you have to stay on the mat (that one seems weird.)

You have the problems with the videos correct. Less obvious is that in the first two, tori is not clamping the locked arm with his own arm. Like squeezing your knees together for Juji gatame, that is a critical but often overlooked part of waki gatame.

Less obvious is that in the first two, tori is not clamping the locked arm with his own arm. Like squeezing your knees together for Juji gatame, that is a critical but often overlooked part of waki gatame.

I've been taught an almost hands-free Waki in the past. Pull the arm out so the biceps is over one of your thighs, the forearm over the other, and the elbow pointing up. Then you bend down into a very low squat with your torso horizontal. I've never pulled that one off.

I've been taught an almost hands-free Waki in the past. Pull the arm out so the biceps is over one of your thighs, the forearm over the other, and the elbow pointing up. Then you bend down into a very low squat with your torso horizontal. I've never pulled that one off.

I don't see how you could. Wrist control in Waki Gatame is as important as it is in Juji Gatame.

I don't see how you could. Wrist control in Waki Gatame is as important as it is in Juji Gatame.
In fairness, I've probably got it wrong. It was at my old judo club, and the instructor only demonstrated it once after the class had ended and somebody asked about the grading syllabus.

THANK YOU for the wakigatame input Mr. Tripp! Now I just need a Coach Josh video on this and my life is complete. My copy of Vital Judo shows waki-gatame from standing as well, and using it was one of the only handful of times that I actually "ipponed" someone in practice while training with one of the regional champion judo teams.

I had to apply it extremely slowly as I don't think my partner even knew what I was even doing, and in the end I let it go because he wouldn't tap and I didn't want to crank it. I never really tried it again after that because I figured unfamiliarity could mean potential injury.

From the IJF Home Page on rules:

http://www.intjudo.eu/?Menu=Static_Page&Action=List&m_static_id=42&lang_id=2&mid=7&main=12#27


c)
When one contestant obtains some considerable effect by applying a Shime-waza or Kansetsu-waza in the standing position and then changes without interruption to Newaza.

And




(31)
To fall directly to the Tatami while applying or attempting to apply techniques such as Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame.

(31 Appendix)
To attempt such throws as Harai-goshi, Uchi-mata, etc., with only one hand gripping the opponent's lapel from a position resembling Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame (in which the wrist of the opponent is trapped beneath the thrower's armpit) and deliberately falling, face down, onto the Tatami is likely to cause injury and will be penalised. No intent to throw an opponent cleanly onto his back is a dangerous action and will be treated in the same way as Ude-hishigi-waki-gatame.



So it should be legal to attempt an arm lock that takes you're opponent into newazza with an armlock to finish it so long as it is a skilful entry and you don't fall directly into the lock. Practically speaking how the ref interprets this is impossible to anticipate but I've certainly used waki gatame and not been penalised before and we have qualified ref's in the class.

If you start an armlock standing you have to control your opponent to the mat. If you just jump or fall down to the mat this does not allow a chance for your opponent to submit/tapout and more than likely will cause injury.

Skillful entry is a bit open ended. Essentially you should attempt a throw that lands you in ne waza, yoko tomoenage for example or apply a technique like waki gatame that forces your opponent to the mat. I have seen people do cross collar chokes that force people to the mat, also. The main crux with standing armlocks is for your opponent to have a chance to protect himself with a tapout or a turnout.

The new rules are if the joint lock is applied standing you have to stay standing. It it is applied on the mat you have to stay on the mat (that one seems weird.)

You have the problems with the videos correct. Less obvious is that in the first two, tori is not clamping the locked arm with his own arm. Like squeezing your knees together for Juji gatame, that is a critical but often overlooked part of waki gatame.

Boo, you didn't give me a chance to answer the question. BTW I do a reversal from the bottom threatening the waki gatame as an end option against Mune-gatame. I've never seen anybody else use it. You?

"Boo, you didn't give me a chance to answer the question. BTW I do a reversal from the bottom threatening the waki gatame as an end option against Mune-gatame. I've never seen anybody else use it. You? "

I know you are not talking to me but for what it is worth my old Judo coach used to use this or something like that.

Also what are some good follow ups after they roll out of waki gatame? I have had a bit off success using a straight arm ude garami (ude gatame?) after they manage to roll.

I usually just switch to a kesa gatame if they start to roll.

Quick question about the application from scarf hold as shown in the good video. Is there a trick in getting them rolled over, or is it basically a question of timing (like many things), and committing to the technique so that it doesn't stall out part way through?

I love the scarf/modified scarf hold position and am always looking for new techniques to add to my game.