Please provide me with the history then. It's a pretty big mess to try to figure out. You've got sites like this on: http://www.gbgm-umc.org/otterbeinumc-wv/karatehistory.htm
Claiming this:

To decide the name of his new school, Lee used the Korean custom of changing the first name of a child, but keeping the rest of the name the same as the parents. Sung Do Kwan ("Shotokan") became Chung Do Kwan, the name of Master Lee’s new martial arts school. The full name of the academy was "Tang Soo Do, Chung Do Kwan" School. After Korea’s independence on August 15, 1945, other martial arts schools (called "kwans") were opened in addition to Master Lee’s Chung Do Kwan School.


It's a story I've heard before. Which is why I mentioned it earlier in this discussion. Also, the arguments over the origin of the names of Korean martial arts vs the actual origins of Korean martial arts has been hashed and rehashed many, many times. The modern, post-WW II Korean striking arts at least have a much disputed history, can we agree on that?

Tang Soo Do is what the Koreans called Shotokan in order to not have it called karate

A few years ago I read an article by a TSD practitioner (whose name I can't remember)who claimed that the style was taken directly from shorin-ryu karate. He claimed that their forms were exact copies of shorin-ryu's kata. He may even have specified what book they came from. The author claimed that when he went to a superior (I also can't recall if it was his personal teacher or the head of the org) he was told, as he put it, to "have a nice life" and that that was essentially the end of his TSD career. Is this any closer to the truth than what daishi and rpeterson had heard?

Bla bla bla...Shotokan...Cheongdogwan...

A language breakdown and explanation is in order.

Chinese: 松濤館/靑濤館

These are the Chinese characters for both schools. Note that the first character is different. This is because they are different words, and different names, having different meanings.

Hiragana: しょうとうかん/せいとうかん or しょうとうかん
Romaji: Shōtōkan/Seitōkan or Shōtōkan

These are the Japanese pronounciations of the two names. The romaji is the English phonetic pronounciation. Note that there is an alternate pronounciation of the second name, but that it is still not the same words as the first name.

Hangul: 송도관/청도관
Romaja: Songdogwan/Cheongdogwan

This is the Korean pronounciations of the two names referenced in the above Chinese characters. The Romaja is the English phonetic pronounciation of these Korean words. Note that there is no alternate pronounciation of the second name.

English: Pine Wave School/Blue Wave School

Further, the Cheongdogwan was not a Korean branch of the Shotokan, so calling it the Korean Shotokan is not only completely inaccurate, but it is disingenuous.


Also, the arguments over the origin of the names of Korean martial arts vs the actual origins of Korean martial arts has been hashed and rehashed many, many times.

Then get it right.


The modern, post-WW II Korean striking arts at least have a much disputed history, can we agree on that?

Irrelevant.

A few years ago I read an article by a TSD practitioner (whose name I can't remember)who claimed that the style was taken directly from shorin-ryu karate. He claimed that their forms were exact copies of shorin-ryu's kata. He may even have specified what book they came from. The author claimed that when he went to a superior (I also can't recall if it was his personal teacher or the head of the org) he was told, as he put it, to "have a nice life" and that that was essentially the end of his TSD career. Is this any closer to the truth than what daishi and rpeterson had heard?

You're referring to John Hancock, who is a friend of mine.

No, this is not closer to the truth.

Give me a book and I'll find it. Otherwise, most of what I've seen pieced together by anyone has been what their sabumnim has told them or what they heard from grandmaster so and so. A lot of hearsay and gossip that isn't founded in a lot of sources. That's no good way to try to decipher what is historically accurate even if you hear the story from more than one person. I was told by more than one person that the Chung Do Kwan was originally rooted in Shotokan, and I've seen it written down in various places, but this was obviously wrong as you've pointed out eloquently or not. Then show me where I can find the truth.

If you're going to tell us we're all wrong, wrong, wrong, at least provide a way for us to find out what is absolutely correct and factual. As I said, provide me a book and an author, and I'll find it and read it.

You're referring to John Hancock, who is a friend of mine.


Yes, just found it: Quest For The Truth: The Origin of Tang Soo Do's Forms, in case anyone is interested.

When you say that this isn't accurate either do you mean that Mr. Hancock has since revised his opinion or do you mean that you're relying on separate sources that you find more credible?

Give me a book and I'll find it. Otherwise, most of what I've seen pieced together by anyone has been what their sabumnim has told them or what they heard from grandmaster so and so.

Read the forum stickies before posting here again.


I was told by more than one person that the Chung Do Kwan was originally rooted in Shotokan, and I've seen it written down in various places, but this was obviously wrong as you've pointed out eloquently or not.

You seem to either have a problem with reading comprehension, or with expressing yourself.

This is not what you said earlier.

Nor is it what I said above.


Then show me where I can find the truth.

You have to be asking the right questions before you can get the right answer.


If you're going to tell us we're all wrong, wrong, wrong, at least provide a way for us to find out what is absolutely correct and factual. As I said, provide me a book and an author, and I'll find it and read it.

A book about what?

About the Korean language?

About over-generalizing and talking about things that you only have cursory and second hand knowledge of?

You're making claims.

Do you have proof?

When you say that this isn't accurate either do you mean that Mr. Hancock has since revised his opinion or do you mean that you're relying on separate sources that you find more credible?

Hancock's article is credible to a certain extent and in a certain context, and that is a very specific one, though Hancock may not specify it in the article.

However, what you and Peterson are talking about is not justified by Hancock's article.

Didn't realize the Japanese and Koreans have had an amicable history together. I stand corrected.

As to anything else I've stated, its from the book I referenced...which a friend let me borrow. I got that impression from Choi's study of Shotokan Karate while living/studying in Japan. Also mentioned was rough treatment he, and other Korean immigrants, received while there. Anyway, as I stated...its a controversial book to my knowledge.

Ref.
Gillis, A. (2008). A Killing Art: The untold history of Tae Kwon Do. ECW Press: Toronto.

* in particular Chapter 2 in whole and pp 21-30 in particular.

I really know very little else about TKD, TSD, KSD and I've certainly seen books from my own martial arts make wild and inaccurate claims....so I will
- bow -
out and leave this discussion to progress for those with more knowledge, as suggested.

Didn't realize the Japanese and Koreans have had an amicable history together. I stand corrected.

That wasn't what you were wrong about. You were wrong about the Koreans specifically calling Shotokan "Dangsudo", and you were wrong about the reasons why they called it Dangsudo".

Ok.

I also said 7 Kwans, but I believe it was 9?

That wasn't what you were wrong about. You were wrong about the Koreans specifically calling Shotokan "Dangsudo", and you were wrong about the reasons why they called it Dangsudo".

Correct me if I'm wrong-- Dangsudo/Tang Soo Do is just the Korean way of reading the same Chinese characters that are used for "karate," right? So you can have a bunch of different kinds of Tang Soo Do. I think you referenced Shorim-something Dangsudo once as being equivelant to Shorinji-ryu Karate at some point.

I've also been told (unverifiable source: my instructor was told by his instructor) that the Japanese went from a writing that said "Chinese hand" to one that is usually translated "empty hand" now, though it's still pronounced the same, which is similar to the rough translation I've been given for Dangsudo/Tang Soo Do.

Think your missing the point Der108 is making. You said Jidokwon is just a name for Shotokan. While its a name of a school. Reread his post.

The Taekwondo Jidokwan issues dan and poom certificates still (as does the Chung Do Kwan though both fully support the Kukkiwon). If you wish to verify the certificate, contact GM Al Cole of Cleveland, OH who is very loyal to his Kwan. His website is www.taekwondojidokwan.com.

True,

That is where my friend got his certs from...I think what the discussion revolves around is that non-traditional aspect of issuing dan rank for jidokwan when that was not necessarily their original practice. The tumultuous birth/joining of the kwans into Tae Kwon Do perhaps muddied this practice. However, there are Jidokwan practitioners to this day...though some may call them sentimentalists...that hold to the original art with the addition of dan system as per common pratice in MA's in North America. This is more or less the gist of what my buddy told me who is a sandan in Jidokwan in Ohio.
Best,
A

True,

That is where my friend got his certs from...

Well, if it was thru GM Cole, they are legitimate Jidokwan.


I think what the discussion revolves around is that non-traditional aspect of issuing dan rank for jidokwan when that was not necessarily their original practice.

Issuing of dan certificates is traditional (if you can call anything less than 70 years "traditional.") in the karate-based Kwans which later became Taekwondo. Each of the pre-Kukkiwon Kwans issued certificates. That was one of the problems leading up to the Korean-government backed KTA (and later the Kukkiwon) issuing official dan ranking.



However, there are Jidokwan practitioners to this day...though some may call them sentimentalists...that hold to the original art with the addition of dan system as per common pratice in MA's in North America. This is more or less the gist of what my buddy told me who is a sandan in Jidokwan in Ohio.

Many Taekwondoin, myself included, are proud of their Kwan heritage. But the Kwan-jang of each Kwan pledged allegiance and support for the Kukkiwon.

Your friend is a sam-dan (3rd) or a sa-dan (4th)? San is the Japanese pronunciation.