I'm curious about this. I thought to myself that with my really limited groundfighting skills (3 years of folkstyle), if I were to get into a fight on t3h str33t with a BJJer, and it went to the ground, the first thing I would start doing is grabbing his fingers and start breaking.

However, I know BJJ would have some way to prevent this, and I'm curious as to what that is. Is it that they're able to obtain positional dominance quickly enough that they don't concern themselves with actively countering attempts at SJM, or do they have some specific method with dealing with SJM?

Thanks in advance.

Twisting fingers doesnt stop someone who is doing BJJ... it just leads to broken fingers from training. You can try to break my fingers, but I am going to break your arm.

But how do you grapple effectively with broken fingers/thumbs? Doesn't that make it difficult (if not impossible) to maintain an effective hold on someone?

Originally posted by Emevas
I'm curious about this. I thought to myself that with my really limited groundfighting skills (3 years of folkstyle), if I were to get into a fight on t3h str33t with a BJJer, and it went to the ground, the first thing I would start doing is grabbing his fingers and start breaking.

However, I know BJJ would have some way to prevent this, and I'm curious as to what that is. Is it that they're able to obtain positional dominance quickly enough that they don't concern themselves with actively countering attempts at SJM, or do they have some specific method with dealing with SJM?

Thanks in advance.

If you went to the ground with someone who knew what they were doing, you would never have a CHANCE to get their fingers, unless you got lucky.

It takes more pressure to break any bone than I think some people realise -- and getting your finger broken isn't really incapacitating, 'less you are a total *****. I say this from having broken fingers and toes, in training and out, and barely noticed till the X-rays and the doctor's irritated: "Why did you leave this untreated for 6 weeks?".

Additional: Having broken fingers dosen't effect most of the best BJJ moves. I don't need to grasp your arm to snap your elbow with an armbar. I can contol you with a forearm wrap or some such.

Originally posted by JKDChick
If you went to the ground with someone who knew what they were doing, you would never have a CHANCE to get their fingers, unless you got lucky.


So it's more about obtaining positional dominance as quickly as possible than it is about actively countering attempts at SMJ? Does BJJ have any drills specifically against SMJ, or is it always just an attempt at dominanace?

Forgive this, but what EXACTLY does SMJ stand for to you? I like to have my terms straight.

As to the other, yeah, I would say that positional dominance would be a main, immediate goal in a "street" fight. I don't want to be on my back unless I have to be.

I'm actually going off-line right now, but I'll be back to this conversation later tonight.

Hehe, oops, butchered the acronym a few times it seems. SJM (Small Joint Manipulation) as defined by that which they have banned in the UFC. Stuff that involves applying pressure to/breaking/locking up the fingers and other small joints.

Don't have any training officially in SJM (like Chin Na, or anything like that), just some basic manipulation.

And 'fore anyone gets the wrong impression, I have not made this thread to say something to the effect that "Haha, BJJ is defenseless against my finger twisting". It's just something I was curious about today whe I was thinking about what I'd do if I ever got into a fight with someone who knew more than I did about the ground.

like JKDChick said (I believe) ?Bjj doesen't really grasp with the fingers but more likely hooks and wraps with the forearm. In a severe encounter I don't think SMJ could effectivly contain a skilled Sub. Grappler. especially when considering adreneline and such.

Just as a side note, small joint manipulation is more likely to subluxate or dislocate a finger rather than breaking it outright. True, some dislocations will result in an avulsion fracture, but most of the time you will just be tearing ligaments and tendons, which DOES hurt a lot but probably won't incapacitate someone very quickly. Keep in mind they still have 9 more functional fingers. . .

SJM isn't just fingers, it's also the wrist. Call me crazy, but if you break or dislocate someones wrist they are going to notice. Even if they keep fighting their ability will be greatly diminished.

I went to a Wally Jay Small Circle Ju-Jitsu seminar a few years back and it made me a believer in finger locks. My girlfriend is just naturally good at them and you would be surprised how many times I find myself in one when we are wrestling.

I agree that breaking or dislocating the wrist will make someone notice AND reduce their fighting ability. HOWEVER, that's much more difficult to do than dislocating a finger. Just keep that in mind. The wrist is pretty tough and pretty flexible.

SJM is illegal in MMA for a reason. If your going to it right, there isn't time to tap before the snap. The wrist is harder to break than a finger, but not harder than an elbow or a shoulder. If you use the same princples against small joints that BJJ does against the larger ones, they're going to be in trouble.

Funny story.

I was at a seminar, not the Wally Jay one, and we were working didn't wrist locks. One guy was getting a little agitated, and didn't seem to be having a good time. The instructor asked him what was wrong and the guy was like "This is totally unrealistic. No one is just going to give you their hand so you can wrist lock them."

The instructor replied, "Sure they will. Here I'll show you." He walked right up in front of the guy and softly and politely, almost in a whisper, said "Give me your hand". The guy said "No!"

The instructor then reached up and tried to slap the guy. The guy brought an arm up to block, the instructor slapped him right on the hand, turned it into a wrist lock, and dropped him like a ton of bricks.

I have always found wrist locks to be fun. Since my main art is the style that gave birth to Wally Jae's art we also have lots of wrist locks. Great for control since the wrist is always traveling with the opponents arm.

This is such a stupid question, Emevas. I'm sorry, but it is. It is EASIER to get a large joint lock than a small joint lock. Likewise, large joint control affords better control of the whole body. Go ahead and spend your time chasing my fingers...Sheesh.

Watch Djimbe try for SJM in the video here. He's on the bottom grimacing in frustration about something. That's it.