Great hunks of the book Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey happen to be online at Google Books. A glance may be enlightening:

http://tinyurl.com/2cfqala

This is exactly the sort of thing I was after. Thanks for the responses everyone.

As an aside, I think it's pretty cool how we're seeing the rise of family-based arts again (ie, Gracie & Machado fighting), just as you did back in the past in China.

It's interesting that parts of the West had a religious/martial tradition (ie, the Greeks or Vikings, who saw near universal martial training as part of a wider religious & civic obligation) similar to the stuff described in the above book, but it died out.

Also what is interesting is that so many religions merged spiritual and physical virtues (ie, healthy body, healthy spirit), but Christianity never appropriated that cultural belief really. Ie, for many pre-Christian societies, a virtuous or good man was a strong man (be it Greek, Scandinavian, or Chinese(?)). But post the wide spread of Christianity, martial prowess was in large part identified with 'bad people'. Saints are almost universally NOT fighters (apart from obvious exceptions like St George). I mean, you had the attempt to Christianise the professional warrior class with knights & chivalry and all that, but I seriously doubt many knights lived anywhere near the Arthurian ideal.

Anyway, moving off topic. Thanks again for the responses.

It is Fake,

I understand your desire for citation however i would appreciate a little guidance as to what you consider to be appropriate source material regarding the history of TMA in China. I ask because most reference works are heavily influence by the revisionist influences of incoming dynasties and the difficulty in accurately interpreting source material.

You can see from my profile that i live in China and am working on a thesis based on TMA. I am happy to provide source material but do you want scanned copies of old chinese documents posted on the site? (They don't exist on the web and for the most part have not been previously referenced in other publications)

I would lastly point out that many of the better known works (though by no means all) are only considered to be authoriative because of a lack of alternative work by westerners in this area, whilst many authoritative chinese works were heavily influenced by the political climate of the time.

Thoughts please....

The funny thing about MA movies is the misconception. If you watch Jackie Chan movies there are more normal peasants getting killed, running out of bars/restaurants, and getting beat down than can actually fight.That's why I love Jackie Chan. More often than not he's getting the **** kicked out of himself too, 90% of his fight scenes are him trying to run away.

That's why I love Jackie Chan. More often than not he's getting the **** kicked out of himself too, 90% of his fight scenes are him trying to run away.
That's what makes the myths funny to me. Most of his early movies involve ass-whoopins, running, TRAINING, losing, TRAINING, and then winning.

Hell, the 36th chamber has YEARS of training. The Five Deadly Venoms has training.

If there ever was a time when the animal-styles of Kung Fu (crane, praying mantis, monkey etc) were ever used in earnest, and not as a sort of religious/performance/meditation thing.

this shows that you have no idea what the animals were and are used for in CMA. i use animal techniques all the time in sparring. hell i even use some of it in judo! just cause it doesn't look like something out of a movie or forms demo doesn't mean anything.

i suggest you read some of the old topics in this forum (the search function is a wonderful thing.)

Don't listen to Ming he does Judo.

You are a traitor to Shaolin so you can't say we're brothers.

Don't listen to Ming he does Judo.

You are a traitor to Shaolin so you can't say we're brothers.

i love you, man :)

B] just cause it doesn't look like something out of a movie or forms demo doesn't mean anything.[/B]
QFT.





YouTube- SHAOLIN VS LAMA ( Pt 7 ) kung fu martial arts movie - Alexander Lo Rei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8EW1Fn1dTs)

4:49@Ming.

Don't listen to Ming he does Judo.


Kill him!

YouTube- Shaolin vs Wutang - Final Fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHI80c8-A0w&)

Misinformation and confusion is problematic even for academics:

Great hunks of the book Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey happen to be online at Google Books. A glance may be enlightening:

http://tinyurl.com/2cfqala


Thanks for the great resource Rivington, I think chapter 5 is very interesting though I wish it was a bit longer.
Does anyone know of some good ethnographic collections of anthropologist studying the martial arts and their history in China?

::edit:: put the n in ethnographic in the wrong spot ::/edit::

i've read in the seven taoist masters, which is a pretty old book from china, that one guy in it used his skill to settle disputes among people for which he was hired. sounds reasonable.

Quick question, how many people who have commented in this thread have actually studied 16th century Ming China at a degree level?

How many of you have studied the militarization of Chinese culture during the transition from Ming to Qing Empires?

EDIT:
P.S as an introduction start with the works of Joanna Waley-Cohen.

Late to this party but I would like to take a moment and point out that even in agrarian cultures, even in rice based ones, the notions that life was unending toil and there was no leisure time or income are kind of false. Western peasants had more free time than people think, and Eastern rice economies required relatively skilled and invested farmers...not that they lived in style and had butlers or anything, but they have some time away from the fields, enough for for a few hours at least of crafts, sports, religion, etc. (also remember they didn't drive or have TV so their off time was home or community time)

Just a note of caution re: using books as definitive sources. Its important to check the provenance of the book and author, because anyone can pump out a book Fil Elmoar and Ashida Kim are published authors after all. A much better avenue is scholarly journals, however, there is a paucity of studies conducted into martial arts by serious historians.

Monks and non-monastic martial artists often made their money as itenerants.

Late-Ming martial artists were thus often on the road, or as the Chinese would have it "on the water." Sixteenth- and-seventeenth century authors allude to martial artists in the context of the "rivers and lakes" (jianghu) which term designated all those who earn a transient livelihood: actors, storytellers, fortune-tellers and the like... Presumably, teachers were remunerated by students, and competitions could take the form of public performances paid for by spectators. Shahar, M, ‘Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice’, Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, 61, (2001), p. 379.


Another interesting read:

http://tinyurl.com/24pk9co

A limited Google Books preview of The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese martial arts.

The article cited above is a 65 page article by the author of this book. So this book is probably well researched and accurate. Given the high quality of research evident in the journal article.

(also remember they didn't drive or have TV so their off time was home or community time)


Wowie, that's a completely different observation than the one I made:


You'd have a lot more spare time to practice martial arts too if you weren't dicking around on the Internet, going to school to learn things you'll never use, reading books, fucking on the third date, going more than two miles away from wherever mama shat you out, etc.

Thanks for chippin' in!

Just a note of caution re: using books as definitive sources. Its important to check the provenance of the book and author, because anyone can pump out a book Fil Elmoar and Ashida Kim are published authors after all. A much better avenue is scholarly journals, however, there is a paucity of studies conducted into martial arts by serious historians.

Yes, we know. We have used that journal in the past. When people are borderline trolling we don't take the time to get deep into details. Sorry, we aren't going to get a serious discussion when people say

See, my knowledge of Chinese history is overwhelmingly influenced by Jackie Chan movies, so I'm wondering if there ever was a period of time when you had the schools-full-of-students-training-full-time thing going on. If there ever was a time when the animal-styles of Kung Fu (crane, praying mantis, monkey etc) were ever used in earnest, and not as a sort of religious/performance/meditation thing. Were martial arts ever practiced by the peasant class?

If the poster continued, the thread would have become serious and good sources may have been provided.