Dam I went to sleep before all this got going.

Uke goshi is the best way to learn harai. When I was younger and dumber I believed that ogoshi and tsurigoshi were better then after I learned good technique I changed my opinion.

I like Uki Goshi, in fact, it's one of my favorite throws, I just love the way it feels. I find that beginners have a hard time with it. I teach O Goshi, Tsurikomi Goshi, then Uki Goshi, but it all really depends on the individual student when I hit them with Uki Goshi. After O Goshi and Tsurikomi Goshi, if the student(s) have good enough balance to start working on one leg, I will go to Harai Goshi if warranted.


Kuzushi,debana and renwaku are just dependent on the level of the practitioner. Simply teaching beginners to push and wait for uke to push back seems counter productive but really you are teaching them the feel of Judo. While I know textbook kuzushi is impractical in competition to the beginner its invaluable. Sometimes I think we forget to whom we are instructing and need to remember that some things are essential for building the base of our students Judo.

Absolutely, that is my experience as well. To me, it is imperitive that beginners learn the action/reaction nature of Judo from the beginning. Will they do it very well? Will they learn complex ranraku waza? No, neither (in general). But if you start them with static situations, straight pull, straight push, then that gets set in their minds and is a hard habit to break.

Kihon waza in any art/science/technical trade/etc. are critical to the complete development of the individual in the given discipline. I've seen this in Judo, soccer, geology, etc. with my own eyes. Observe any kids Judo class and watch who can do what. The kids (like mine) who have grown up with lots of physical activity and exercise will learn faster and easier. My boys taught themselves how to do cartwheels etc. by watching my judo classes, now at 5 and 6 y/o engage in randori on the ground and standing (not that I let them do it standing, their ukemi is a bit lacking!).


Also the need to teach Judo in Japanese is paramount to the learning of Judo. It is the technical language of the sport. I know people think other wise but Japanese is the common tongue for the sport. Its not really proper Japanese either but still I can understand a Judo class in Japanese from the very limited vocabulary I have.

I say this because you never know which student of yours will go somewhere or make good of themselves in the sport or travel to another club or decide to post some drivel on the internet. They will then be able to represent your instruction with an ounce of knowledge.

I have this happen to me all the time as a high school teacher. I will meet a technical college professor at some function and they will have one of my students in his class. They will then tell me how good of a job the student is doing. They will be impressed with the base knowledge the student has about electronics. I am thinking it is one of my A students that did very well in the class. Its not. It is one of my lower performing guys that made C's and barely finished his work. They go on and on about how he is doing so well and an example in the classroom and so on.

Very good points again. Kihon waza!


So you just never know who you will effect or how you will effect them as an instructor. Just give them a solid foundation and then they can build whatever they want on top of that and not have to worry about it collapsing.

Right on, Josh!

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

I've found that Harai-goshi can be "muscled" more easily than Uchimata and that makes Uchimata a better throw to study. Good Uchimata leads to a better Harai-goshi. In turn, I never really focused on Uki-goshi until recently and all the principles applied to Uchi have helped with Uki.

My Seoi and O-goshi and Koshi-guruma and such have always sucked, maybe because I've always worried about Ura-nage counters. Or I might just suck at them...

So I teach it backwards, I guess. I do wrestle without pants on...

Ben why would you think of it as an ego trip?

Josh, I am referring ONLY to myself, did not mean to imply this applied to anyone else here or elsewhere.


I find it quite helpful and it even gives me ideas for teaching classes or rethinking some things about my approach to Judo. While I do agree I do not know much about Judo I do find that writing down some things on the forums has helped me develop better lessons, explanations and approaches to teaching.

I find a plethora of information in many posts from many different people at different levels. Unlike many Judoka I no longer have an instructor or older Judoka close that I can turn to for advice. Mark unknowingly has helped me as well as yourself from just simple acknowledgment of things I have shared with others on this board.

I agree,and this is the conclusion I came to for myself after working through the issues myself. If I don't put my ideas out there, then they won't get any critical review by peers or otherwise. No feedback is bad! Self awareness is most important in any case.


As far as the Judo info forums I use to be there quite often but after my "crusade" showed me the true colors of many of the people there I lost respect for many of them and the sight of their name made me sick. I will lurk there from time to time to read about some stuff but just don't care to interact with them at this time. I am sure it will pass but I am still a little upset by some of them. Some of them did thank me though and I the ones that did made it worth the abuse./[quote]

I think that at first you had some strong reaction, but in the end, as Neil and the welsh guy were involved, most folks moderated their responses. The only ones who really mattered were those two anyway. I understand how you feel, though. I've gotten blasted a few times myself for different issues over the years.

[quote=Coach Josh;2327532]Back on point.

I really do not see it as an ego thing. I see it as offering advice to others and sharing my experiences with them on Judo. They can take it for what is worth and use it or write it off as some idiot in the swamp posting out of his insane crawfish eating mind. While the posts will stay up for a long time and be part of an electronic archive they are not written in stone. More to the point I welcome more and more BB to post if only for the selfish reason of me learning.

Like I wrote above, the ego thing was regarding myself only. I'm at a higher level of understanding of my motives now, so I sometimes post. At other times, I'm just tired of trying to explain things to people in writing that are best done in person, and even in person, some issues are tough. Even with perfect advise in writing, the person would need close supervision to drill whatever it was they wanted to learn.

In any case, I am not arguing for you or others to not give advice however or whenever you want to do, I speak for myself only.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

not that i am trying to nitpick, but, o soto gari is translated as major outer reap, or large outer reap. i've never seen the word 'leg' thrown in. googling it yielded some results for your translations, but very few.

and how is o soto gari more specific and clearer than major outer reap? they say the EXACT same thing, just in two different languages. you could consider the fact that many judo terms will sound just as foreign to many japanese who know nothing about judo.

i've seen the terms outside leg trip and far-leg trip used in wrestling for o soto, which might be more descriptive to some.

Using "trip" to describe Osoto Gari is inaccurate, as it is a reap, not a trip, in Judo at least. "Gari" (reap or cut) is a specific principle of throwing in Judo, "trip" is not that I know of.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

Ah, young grasshoppers.... let an elder of the tribe speak.

In my day I have been all over the world. Italy, France, Germany, Greece, Turkey, Korea, Japan, Okinawa, and on and on....

When there I found Judoka. When I found Judoka I found friends. Even though we did not speak each others language, we all spoke the same language, Judo.

That language allowed us to speak not just on the mat; but off the mat as well, as we had a common point of reference.

Led to some comic moments too.

It is why it MUST be taught with the japanese terms....

mr. tripp, i have a question.

i have no exposure to sambo as you do (man, i always wanted to, but it was just never available in my area) and when sambo folks meet, do they talk about their moves in russian terms??? if they don't, does that lessen the level of comradery they feel toward eachother? (i'd laugh so hard if you say they use judo terms! but even if they do, there are things that are unique to sambo)

when i wrestled briefly, i met quite a few foreign wrestlers who didn't speak any english, and we shared no common terms, except maybe par terre, but we got along on the grounds that we're all groppy sweaty smelly men.

I've found that Harai-goshi can be "muscled" more easily than Uchimata and that makes Uchimata a better throw to study. Good Uchimata leads to a better Harai-goshi. In turn, I never really focused on Uki-goshi until recently and all the principles applied to Uchi have helped with Uki.

My Seoi and O-goshi and Koshi-guruma and such have always sucked, maybe because I've always worried about Ura-nage counters. Or I might just suck at them...

So I teach it backwards, I guess. I do wrestle without pants on...
[/quote]

I agree that Harai Goshi can be "muscled" more easily than Uchi Mata. Uchi Mata has a much smaller margin for error than Harai Goshi. One legged throws have a lower margin for error than than two legged throws for obvious reasons. That kind of goes against your statement about seoi nage, o goshi, et al., though. Ura Nage counters are a lot easier (for me at least) against one legged throws.

Personally, I teach two legged throws first. O Goshi, Seoi Nage, Tsurikomi Goshi (Ok, I also teach de ashi barai). But it's all relative to the ability of the student(s) in question.

Regards,
Ben Reinhardt

mr. tripp, i have a question.

i have no exposure to sambo as you do (man, i always wanted to, but it was just never available in my area) and when sambo folks meet, do they talk about their moves in russian terms??? if they don't, does that lesson the level of comradery they feel toward eachother? (i'd laugh so hard if you say they use judo terms! but even if they do, there are things that are unique to sambo)

when i wrestled briefly, i met quite a few foreign wrestlers who didn't speak any english, and we shared no common terms, except maybe par terre, but we got along on the grounds that we're all groppy sweaty smelly men.

You likely should ask a more "pure" Sambo guy like Sambo Steve. My experience with Sambo has been more of a Russian Judo guy, and yes, Russian Judo guys still use the japanese terms. I have trained people to fight in Sambo events, and yes, used japanese terms for Sambo movements as they are more comfortable for me.

My experience is with Judo people more than any other....

I agree that Harai Goshi can be "muscled" more easily than Uchi Mata. Uchi Mata has a much smaller margin for error than Harai Goshi. One legged throws have a lower margin for error than than two legged throws for obvious reasons. That kind of goes against your statement about seoi nage, o goshi, et al., though. Ura Nage counters are a lot easier (for me at least) against one legged throws.

Personally, I teach two legged throws first. O Goshi, Seoi Nage, Tsurikomi Goshi (Ok, I also teach de ashi barai). But it's all relative to the ability of the student(s) in question.

Regards,
Ben ReinhardtI

nicely put. I just have trouble going right into the centerline of my opponent/uke. If I start with a Ko-Uchi then follow-up into a Seoi-nage, then I have a better kuzushi; kind of what MTripp is saying about one throw goes into the next.

Koshi-waza is generally my goat for standup work. I live for Ashi/Te-waza.

Using "trip" to describe Osoto Gari is inaccurate, as it is a reap, not a trip, in Judo at least. "Gari" (reap or cut) is a specific principle of throwing in Judo, "trip" is not that I know of.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

i think it is really a matter of semantics. i think there is nothing wrong with using the word 'tripping' or 'hooking' to explain a throw.

koreans call osoto 'BAT DARI GULGI'. it literally means outside leg hooking/tripping, and they do o soto just fine, without referencing the 'reaping' concept.

I agree that Harai Goshi can be "muscled" more easily than Uchi Mata. Uchi Mata has a much smaller margin for error than Harai Goshi. One legged throws have a lower margin for error than than two legged throws for obvious reasons. That kind of goes against your statement about seoi nage, o goshi, et al., though. Ura Nage counters are a lot easier (for me at least) against one legged throws.

Personally, I teach two legged throws first. O Goshi, Seoi Nage, Tsurikomi Goshi (Ok, I also teach de ashi barai). But it's all relative to the ability of the student(s) in question.

Regards,
Ben ReinhardtI

nicely put. I just have trouble going right into the centerline of my opponent/uke. If I start with a Ko-Uchi then follow-up into a Seoi-nage, then I have a better kuzushi; kind of what MTripp is saying about one throw goes into the next.

Koshi-waza is generally my goat for standup work. I live for Ashi/Te-waza.[/quote]

In general, attacking a skilled opponent with a straight attack is difficult, depending on how well you do the throw, etc. If the opponent is good enough, then, as you know, not much of anything will work, at least consistently. I was doing randori two weeks ago with a 19 y/o shodan who is very good. I attacked with a triple combination, which was working..in other words, I had the opening I needed, and each move made a "bigger" opening/debana, but his reactions were so fine that he used a beautiful Uchi Mata Sukashi to throw me for ippon anyway. At the point, I realized I was outclassed.

My experience is that working Tsurikomi Goshi is very helpful for koshi waza in general, including koshi versions of Uchi mata, as well as seoi nage.

I love ashi waza too, and wish more beginners would focus on them earlier in their study of Judo. Hiza Guruma and Sasae are two throws that are massively overlooked/skipped over early on, and add variety to the renraku waza available to beginners.

Regards,

Ben

kenikim: the Russians I've trained with were mostly cross-discipline. Judo terminology was pretty freely traded with Sambo (Russian). It varies, there is a lot of international
prestige in Judo so some Russians lean more toward teh Judo.

It does seem like some terms are switched: Sasae-Tsurikomi-Ashi is kind of a mouthful so you might hear "footsweep" in English, "Zastep" in Russian, "Balayges" in French or whatever.

Hiza-Guruma/O-Guruma/Tai-Otoshi/Aishi-Guruma is one of my favorite series of throws to work. It's not exactly exciting Judo cause I'm chipping away rather than boldly attacking like a proper Bushido, but I sure do enjoy it. Plus I feel like I can ward-off most of the youngins with these waza :-)

kenikim: the Russians I've trained with were mostly cross-discipline. Judo terminology was pretty freely traded with Sambo (Russian). It varies, there is a lot of international
prestige in Judo so some Russians lean more toward teh Judo.

It does seem like some terms are switched: Sasae-Tsurikomi-Ashi is kind of a mouthful so you might hear "footsweep" in English, "Zastep" in Russian, "Balayges" in French or whatever.

thanks serge,

i suspected that judo terms are used a lot in sambo even in russia because of cross training. after all there is no olympic gold in sambo, for better or worse.

i think it is really a matter of semantics. i think there is nothing wrong with using the word 'tripping' or 'hooking' to explain a throw.

koreans call osoto 'BAT DARI GULGI'. it literally means outside leg hooking/tripping, and they do o soto just fine, without referencing the 'reaping' concept.

No, it's not a matter of semantics, it's a matter of accurately describing the principle behind the technique. Gari (reap) and gake (hook) are two separate principles. Using "hook" (gake) to describe Osoto Gari is inaccurate, in judo at least. It doesn't matter if the Koreans use words that literally translate to hooking/tripping, they are still wrong.

Now, there is something called Osoto Gake, but it's a different throw than Osoto Gari.

You can call it bulgogi if you want and still do the throw well, of course, but you can't have it for lunch.

Ben

Hiza-Guruma/O-Guruma/Tai-Otoshi/Aishi-Guruma is one of my favorite series of throws to work. It's not exactly exciting Judo cause I'm chipping away rather than boldly attacking like a proper Bushido, but I sure do enjoy it. Plus I feel like I can ward-off most of the youngins with these waza :-)

oh man, hiza guruma is AWESOME!!! love that ashi waza in action! so rarely done. have you seen how Kosmynin uses it? CRAZY throw!

and tai otoshi! man, how lee won hee does that with single side sode grip so effortlessly is CRAZY!

i can't do any of these throws...
getting an acute case of waza envy.......
born and bred for seoi..............

No, it's not a matter of semantics, it's a matter of accurately describing the principle behind the technique. Gari (reap) and gake (hook) are two separate principles. Using "hook" (gake) to describe Osoto Gari is inaccurate, in judo at least. It doesn't matter if the Koreans use words that literally translate to hooking/tripping, they are still wrong.

Now, there is something called Osoto Gake, but it's a different throw than Osoto Gari.

You can call it bulgogi if you want and still do the throw well, of course, but you can't have it for lunch.

Ben

i knew this was coming...
i respectfully, fully disagree.
what is osoto gake? (i'm playing dumb here, which isn't very difficult, as i've heard of it before. is this a kodokan recognized throw? could you tell me if this is a term used amongst japanese judoka? i am not saying kodokan is always correct, as they still classify te-guruma as variation of sukui nage, which is about correct as saying sasae is a variation of ashi guruma. o soto gari comes in many flavours, a common trait in any popular throw, and some variations of o soto gari don't involve much of a reap.

the bulgogi comment was pretty funny though, i would have laughed more if i wasn't so busy trying to come up with a good argument against yours.