I know exactly what Chiba is doing here and it has nothing really to do with what he's trying to demonstrate. Uke looses contact because he really isn't trying hard enough to maintain his grip..

Side note - Assume Chiba is holding a knife and has drawn it to kill the person standing, the wrist grab is the initial attempt at immobilising the weapon.

Once Uke looses grip, if Chiba had a knife it would be game over for the person standing however; this isn't the emphasis on what he's teaching which is a technique called Shiho nage

... So to answer your point, he raises and lowers his arms to enable uke to re-establish contact, he then tests that grip before applying the technique.

Fair enough. Thanks. It would be rather easy to jump to the assumption that some sort of chi-projection-related incident had taken place there if watching that vid without background knowledge - and I didn't want to do that. :new_color



Turn up the volume !

Seriously

YouTube- Chiba Sensei WAKE UP!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo5Na1x6sAc)

I just knew, before I even looked at the comments that at least one person was going to be all "ZOMG! That guy is mean to his ukes, that's not what Aikido is about...", or something along those lines.

There was a time when I thought that I might take up Aikido (yes, mainly thanks to Mr. Seagal's body of work) and I did a bit of browsing around and some background reading. It was the guys like the above example (all peace, love and fluffy wabbits) - and the ones who, for all intents and purposes seem to practice their art with the belief that 'Aiki' means 'wristgrab' that really put me off taking my interest any further...

That said, I must admit that seeing videos in threads here of Aikido/AJJ guys who would seem to have 'teh r34l', or something close to it has kinda piqued my interest again. A little bit. :XXspider:

That's a gross oversimplification.

I think you'll find that two of Kano's top Judoka did more than simply "check his stuff out" Both reaching 8th dan in Aikido - Tomiki Kenji and Abbe Kenshiro.

If you care to check the time lines for both Judoka studying Aikido you'll see Tomiki started around the 1920's and Abbe in the 1940's - if my memory serves me correctly. Incidentally, Abbe was the youngest ever Judo 6th dan and the youngest All Japan Judo Champion.

Both individuals remained in close contact with Ueshiba until his death - That alone indicates a fair amount of respect for the person they both knew as their Sensei.

I'm not an Ueshiba nutrider - not by a long way however, it's oversimplifications such as yours which fail to grasp several aspects and influences which - it is fair to say - altered Ueshiba Morihei's moralistic and ideological thinking in respect of martial arts in general - not just the one he eventually created.

Many - if not almost all of the video capturing Ueshiba performing aikido, show him in his late 60's - 70's (bearing in mind his declining health and death aged 85) so, when we see this stuff take this into consideration. If you want to see aikido performed more akin to how Ueshiba would have looked earlier in his life (had aikido existed back then in the format we understand) I suggest you look for Chiba Kazuo Shihan. You'll not see any no touch bollocks of chi bolts from this individual I assure you ! lol

...And just to add, Chiba Sensei has himself now "retired" from professional teaching and is in his senior years himself. So likewise look for video of him as a younger aikidoka then if there's video of him in his later years, observe what changes take place - the obvious occurs.


Of course your performance is gonna decline over time, but the problem is that arts like aikido sells themselves as arts that allows yourself to still kick ass even if you are old or weak, because of the "chi" thing.

Of course your performance is gonna decline over time, but the problem is that arts like aikido sells themselves as arts that allows yourself to still kick ass even if you are old or weak, because of the "chi" thing.

I said it before and I'll say it again....not once in my time with Aikido did anyone, at any time, talk about chi or claim that it would allow me to "kick ass" minus physical effort or skill. Not once.

I said it before and I'll say it again....not once in my time with Aikido did anyone, at any time, talk about chi or claim that it would allow me to "kick ass" minus physical effort or skill. Not once.

Yes, but false generalisations are so much more fun than reality.

Yes, but false generalisations are so much more fun than reality.

Most people would agree with you. :hello2:

Of course your performance is gonna decline over time, but the problem is that arts like aikido sells themselves as arts that allows yourself to still kick ass even if you are old or weak, because of the "chi" thing.

Doesn't every 'art' pitch this angle to some extent? Even (almighty) judo.

I'm personally still undecided on some parts of aikido, largely because Shioda sensei looked like such a fucking badass.

I think Aikido rocks. I am a JMA/TMA nut rider at the best of times and have seen good and bad examples of a variety of MA.

How hard is that for PeachNuts to understand?

because of the "chi" thing."chi" is a Chinese word.

Try again.

I said it before and I'll say it again....not once in my time with Aikido did anyone, at any time, talk about chi or claim that it would allow me to "kick ass" minus physical effort or skill. Not once.Often, its not what you're taught but how you play it out that counts.

I think Aikido rocks. I am a JMA/TMA nut rider at the best of times and have seen good and bad examples of a variety of MA.

How hard is that for PeachNuts to understand?

My opinion is that Aikido looks like it should rock. The footwork and the fast movements look do really cool - with the hakama on, it's almost as if they're floating around the room. Also - iriminage. :love7:

I keep looking on YouTube for videos of the 'official' style (i.e. not the groups of offshoot/modified/pre-war guys who do spar alive and have stuff you can look at and think 'yeah, I can see how that might work') Aikido being used against a fully-resisting opponent, yet I don't recall seeing a single one thus far. All I see is flying ukes, flying ukes and more flying ukes.

I might be wrong (please prove me wrong, if so) - but I'm just calling it as I see it.

You aren't wrong, mostly, the flying uke's bit is a catch 22 almost, the notion is that tori is going to take uke's posture and constantly manipulate it to the point where the uke is thrown violently or has to take a sacrificial ukemi to survive the technique. The reason why tori can do this, and this is where the 22 is, is that uke is meant to be attacking constantly throughout, you see uke after having his posture taken is constantly working to regain it, this provides the reaction tori needs to get into the position to throw them so far etc.

However, this is really hard to teach a beginner, so they end up going through it with uke being compliant and then flying for the sake of form at the end, for no real reason. Some folks will 'get it' during the training and be more alive, but for a lot of people it's just choreographed dancing with throws, and it also seems that a lot of folks prefer it like that. Of course if you came into the art from experience in an alive art, it's not so much of an issue, you would naturally react to provide the right stimulus, and if you were lucky, you end up being the one to take control and reverse the situation.

I guess what I'm saying is that uke is also using this as an opportunity to train keeping his center and posture, and if he does so gives the tori a much better, almost alive, experience and is a lot more useful. Constant repetition against a compliant person doesn't teach you a great deal, and when we have aikido folks on the mat they don't seem to like me so much, as I don't play the game, it's pointless.

However, if you were to take 2 people with no prior alive training and tell them that uke should resist, they just both end up stiff and rigid and making an utter hash of it and not learning anything. As it happens this is partially because one of the differences between aikido and koryu is that in aikido you have a mat full of beginners playing with each other, and in a koryu art the low grades practice with a senior person as uke, the sensei in fact guides the training from in the uke position. It's where I usually end up in fact, giving the student a challenge as far as my posture is concerned, but not making it easy, through repetition like that, they start to learn how to feel where and when someones posture can be broken, and can do it in a more alive fashion.

Anyways, I've waffled enough. Oh except to say irimi nage can be varied a lot, and you can make a really short version of it which is much more 'realistic'.

I think you'll find that two of Kano's top Judoka did more than simply "check his stuff out" Both reaching 8th dan in Aikido - Tomiki Kenji and Abbe Kenshiro.

If you care to check the time lines for both Judoka studying Aikido you'll see Tomiki started around the 1920's and Abbe in the 1940's - if my memory serves me correctly. Incidentally, Abbe was the youngest ever Judo 6th dan and the youngest All Japan Judo Champion.
Just two corrections I'd like to make. Abbe was never a student of Kano's or even a student at the Kodokan. He learned Judo first at a school club and later under the Butoku-kai. By this time Kano wasn't teaching Judo regularly or even practicing anything besides kata, devoting most of his time to government work.

The youngest winner of the All Japan Judo Champion was Yasuhiro Yamashita.

I said it before and I'll say it again....not once in my time with Aikido did anyone, at any time, talk about chi or claim that it would allow me to "kick ass" minus physical effort or skill. Not once.

Well ueshiba throws people around without even touching them, It pretty much says it all, isn't it?

Well ueshiba throws people around without even touching them, It pretty much says it all, isn't it?You still fucking posting in this thread ?

FFS

Painful to watch isn't it. Maybe enough licking in the same spot on the window will eventually make a mark.

You still fucking posting in this thread ?

FFS

why not? you think I obey your orders or what?