I just read on something on another thread and someone said that point-sparring (karate style) is a good way to start/supplement Full Contact training.

Someone continued to reply that he/she agrees, point style emphasizes on speed, technique, timing/reacting and endurance and strength are secondary.

These are the basics to arts and if someone starts in full contact immediately, without proper techniques and timing, they will make up with brute force and endurance which form habits.

My view is that this kind of training SHOULD be implemented by full contact fighters, I don't know how it will work, cross-train in shotokan perhaps?. I would like to cite Machida as an example of someone from a point-sparring background that started cross-training in full contact fighting that has amazing reaction timing be in in defending or countering and also great at reading movements.

Please no "MACHIDA STARTED AT 3 ***GOT!" I'm sick of reading that on threads, and also in my opinion they don;t really start picking up fighting skills at such a young age, it simply helped in his development.

What do you guys think?


For fun a WKF (point-sparring) Coaching video:

YouTube- karate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcHuCAmMT7Q&feature=player_embedded)

Now lets me tell you from the percpective of a brown belt in shotokan karate who did point sparring for a good 4 years into late teens and then did boxing and MT.

point sparring didnt help me ****.

Any attempt of having a "first hitter wins" turned into a comedy of 2 people starring at each other on tip toes and then someone jumps forward, tries to reach the other with an outstretched hand with 0 guard because there is no fear of retaliation, and then it turned into a bitchfest of who hit whom first and which hit should count more because it hit a more vital organ in the imaginary hierachy of vital organs.

Other continous point sparring attempts turned into 2 faggots yelling "KIA" more often than hitting each other with floppy punches and kicks as fast as they can to rack up the most points, imagine Tekken played by 2 button mashers.

As for your "beginners overcompensate with power and endurance" thing, thats why you start them out by sparring light/medium contact against someone much better than them who can control the fight.

If the newb goes for proper technqiue then the fight remains light contact and a fun experience to learn timing and apply technique, if the newb spazzes out then the more experienced fighter tears him a new asshole that would make Jenna Jameson green with envy, and the noob learns not to spaz out.

Overall, when sparring even with medium contact, not getting hit in the face is all the incentive i need to make sure my partner gets hit in the face first, and since i pick sparring partners who are my skill level, out smarting them and using proper technique and timing is the only way i will ever touch them without kissing their glove.

i dont see the need for point sparring and havent done it since my krotty days.

Point sparring = tag.

Freeze tag cannot "supplement" full contact training.

Yes it can if you are a ninja.

What type of point sparring?

Modern point sparring with light contact and a ton of equipment?

Or the 70's style bare knuckle minimal equipment point sparring

For reference this is a random clip I found by typing 70's point sparring

YouTube- David Deaton Sparring (70s) - IV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfcgL7lZFIs)

There is a HUGE difference between this and what point sparring is nowdays.

You will notice they don't call light taps points and only stop it after hard hits.

This type of point sparring is useful

While point sparring is worthless for knockdown and harder fighting(as is the apparent conclusion of my betters), what I wonder, purely out of curiosity and personal interest, is if point sparring is better than or worse than no sparring at all?

For instance, I wanted to start my martial arts journey(oh lawd totally fruity phrasing) in TKD, which had continuous point sparring, but instead started in Shorin-ryu, which didn't have any goddamned sparring of any kind. Would I have been better bouncing around and picking up foot kicking and floppy arms as bad habits, or was I better off just fucking around by learning a bunch of goofy blocks that merely culminated in my punching someone in the shin in Kyokushin and nearly breaking my wrist in the process?

I don't understand what makes hard contact point sparring more useful for hand to hand training than medium or soft contact point sparring except one hurts more after you get hit. But I can understand how it could be helpful for weapon sparring but from what I see the best weapon fighters (sparrers?) I can think of are the DogBrothers and I'm pretty sure they do continuous sparring.

Point sparring imo went to **** when kickboxing started to get confused with karate... boxing has very different body dynamics than karate and when you mix the two you get shitty boxing and really shitty karate.

What one has to remember is that karate was a martial art. Funikashi among other things dictated one principle that was in karate. That principle was one hit one kill. Thing is that this principle was in karate so to accent it even before Shotokan became an art form more than a combat form, did not hurt karate. However when boxing got mixed with karate guys started to bounce around and play tag. The boxers would throw punches... quickly throwing the required number of kicks a round (they had a rule you had to throw so many kixs a round back in the day) and then slug it out.

In answer to the question posed on this thread: Point sparring was not point sparring if that makes any sense. Point sparring was the ability to deliver a blow that you knew would break an object and to control the amount of force used to deliver that blow.

If you want to practice sparring that is accurate then remember that now a days we have better gear and can smack each other with less or no restraint. To work in accuracy do what karate guys did... practice "ippons" two man sets that emphasize accuracy and delivering th eblow to teh intended target.

I don't understand what makes hard contact point sparring more useful for hand to hand training than medium or soft contact point sparring except one hurts more after you get hit. But I can understand how it could be helpful for weapon sparring but from what I see the best weapon fighters (sparrers?) I can think of are the DogBrothers and I'm pretty sure they do continuous sparring.


Imagine you were training boxing as a bare knuckles sport and you wanted to spar with out killing each other (note spar not fight)


So how are we going to do this?

We can go full contact full tilt but limit to body shits, or we can include head shots and to make it relatively safe we will limit it to however gets the first three "good" shots in.

Again the original goal of karate point sparring way back was to spar and work on your skills with out much or any equipment because from a self defense POV that's more realistic.

I noticed this one day when we did bare knuckle ippon kumite - Single point sparring.

Until then I had done continual hit protected (helmet, gloves, shin pads) medium / hard contact sparring

There was a big difference in mindset and approach when you take that away.

I don't think point sparring is a supplement to proper geared up sparring but I do believe the minimal equipment hard contact point sparring is a useful training tool.

Here's a horrible comparison but its all I got.

I did fencing for years, because the sword don't hurt you take risks to get your hit.

If they used electro shocks swords people would fence with a much different style because it would simulate the real risk of getting hit to get a hit.

The focus of Karate is to hit with out getting hit.

The purpose of the old school hard contact little to no equipment point sparring was the same thing, Timing and distance and get your hit in with out getting hit.

It's what Machida does so well.

When you pad up as modern Point sparring does theirs almost no real consequence (pain) to getting hit and it becomes ridiculous.

But I stand by my original hypothesis that the original goal and style of point sparring as it was meant to be a useful training tool

Now lets me tell you from the percpective of a brown belt in shotokan karate who did point sparring for a good 4 years into late teens and then did boxing and MT.

point sparring didnt help me ****.

Any attempt of having a "first hitter wins" turned into a comedy of 2 people starring at each other on tip toes and then someone jumps forward, tries to reach the other with an outstretched hand with 0 guard because there is no fear of retaliation, and then it turned into a bitchfest of who hit whom first and which hit should count more because it hit a more vital organ in the imaginary hierachy of vital organs.


Hmmm good points but I disagree with the 0 guard :X punches to the face full force are illegal but there are still alot of knockouts in the senior competitions from that...

I don't know what dojo you learned in before but an "outstreched hand" does not score any points in any competition I've seen. Bower generation from basics is needed to score any point. Even if you manage to slam your hand hard into your opponent, a point won't be given...so...

Yes it is a first hitter gets the point tag that translates well into a fighting style like machidas where if his opponent is not dazed by his punch, he jumps back and repeats until he catches his opponent dazed and goes in for the kill...

When you pad up as modern Point sparring does theirs almost no real consequence (pain) to getting hit and it becomes ridiculous.

But I stand by my original hypothesis that the original goal and style of point sparring as it was meant to be a useful training tool


My senior and me both got our nose broken from those point tournaments. My friend got sent to the hospital after being kicks to the lower abdomen...

I got a gash in my cheek from a head kick that wouldn't close for 2 weeks...

No consequences....I wouldn't go that far...less definitely because the JKA practitioners were sick of losing teeth and long recoveries...

I don't know what dojo you learned in before but an "outstreched hand" does not score any points in any competition I've seen. Bower generation from basics is needed to score any point. Even if you manage to slam your hand hard into your opponent, a point won't be given...so...


i was emphasizing the stupidity of it, because they werent full out right cross hits, also face punching wasnt allowed, thats because our sparring was done with no gear.

think of it as Kyokushin but was point sparring with light/medium contact, and it frankly sucked.

If you meant full contact *point* sparring with no equipment where the point was to smash the other persons face, then yes, there is some use in that.

YouTube- Shotokan Karate! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWrA4AI5jfw)

but with the added protection gloves, mouthguards and headgear gives now-a-days, which allows for hard contact reasonably safe continous sparring, i still dont see the point of point sparring, in competition you still use some protection.

For the T3H 5TR33T any skills are transferable and you should have the timing, power, technique and speed overkill on the other chum anyways.

i was emphasizing the stupidity of it, because they werent full out right cross hits, also face punching wasnt allowed, thats because our sparring was done with no gear.

think of it as Kyokushin but was point sparring with light/medium contact, and it frankly sucked.

If you meant full contact *point* sparring with no equipment where the point was to smash the other persons face, then yes, there is some use in that.

YouTube- Shotokan Karate! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWrA4AI5jfw)

but with the added protection gloves, mouthguards and headgear gives now-a-days, which allows for hard contact reasonably safe continous sparring, i still dont see the point of point sparring, in competition you still use some protection.

For the T3H 5TR33T any skills are transferable and you should have the timing, power, technique and speed overkill on the other chum anyways.

Yes they are transferable but sparring with no equipment and continuous safe sparring with equipment on gives you two different approaches and techniques.


Fankly like Machida people should do both.

From a self defense POV Machida has the right idea, the best defense is don't get hit.

Machida wouldn't be Machida without the hard contact point sparring

Yes they are transferable but sparring with no equipment and continuous safe sparring with equipment on gives you two different approaches and techniques.


Fankly like Machida people should do both.

From a self defense POV Machida has the right idea, the best defense is don't get hit.

Machida wouldn't be Machida without the hard contact point sparring

IF I'm not wrong...Machida participates in the gloved+mouthguard karate events instead of JKA shotokan events...

And yes, he is doing well in the MMA because he does both... the law of causation cannot refer back to point sparring but it seems that way to me...

My senior and me both got our nose broken from those point tournaments. My friend got sent to the hospital after being kicks to the lower abdomen...

I got a gash in my cheek from a head kick that wouldn't close for 2 weeks...

No consequences....I wouldn't go that far...less definitely because the JKA practitioners were sick of losing teeth and long recoveries...

Your point sparring in Singapore is probably different than 99% of the point sparring in the US and Canada.

I don't blame the JKA for changing stuff but my point that PS was orignially intended for a different context than it is used for today still stands.

That's the number one problem with Karate is that all these bits and pieces which were originally intended as a means to an end have become ends in them selves and make no sense like having kata contest (might as well have a push ups contest)

Your point sparring in Singapore is probably different than 99% of the point sparring in the US and Canada.

I don't blame the JKA for changing stuff but my point that PS was orignially intended for a different context than it is used for today still stands.

That's the number one problem with Karate is that all these bits and pieces which were originally intended as a means to an end have become ends in them selves and make no sense like having kata contest (might as well have a push ups contest)

agreed, I still believe it should be done the slightly old way (halfway between the glove transition) where blackbelts and above fought with old JKA rules and juniors fought with gloves. I still do not understand the point of Kata competitions...it is basically testing your time investing in karate which can be done through kumite...