He cleverly switches the Christian message from suffering and redemption to summoning people to fight against the Jews (an absurd proposition, given Jesus' Jewishness)

Hmmm...

How's about a quick walk through Inquisitorial history, hmm?

Fighting against Jews? Check.

Denying Jeebus' Jewishness? Check.

Creating an emotionally charged, paranoid culture with a bogus background of promised delights or promised tortures (none of which have any evidence to support them)? Check.

I'm not seeing the huge difference, here...

I'm being more than just a little sarcastic here, admittedly, but really? Who's got "th3 r3al J33bus?" Pope Innocent III used his own brand of Christianity to justify the Inquisition, Pat Robinson uses his own brand of Christianity to justify natural disasters killing hundreds of innocent people, and the Westboro Baptist Church uses it's own brand of Christianity to justify their rabid hatemongering...

So, really, what's the "real" Christianity that separates itself from the rest of the overzealous psychotics out there? If I recall my history correctly, when Christian church leaders first got state-sponsorship back in ol' Rome, the first thing they did was go out and raze every other temple to the ground, slaughtering those present therein who refused to convert to the new state religion. And that was the first Christian church! They didn't even really have that much time to develop a psychotic, murderous fringe group...

So, again, with a more inclusive examination, please identify how there's a difference between murderous zealots of one stripe or another, please?

Hmmm...

How's about a quick walk through Inquisitorial history, hmm?

Fighting against Jews? Check.

Denying Jeebus' Jewishness? Check.

Creating an emotionally charged, paranoid culture with a bogus background of promised delights or promised tortures (none of which have any evidence to support them)? Check.

I'm not seeing the huge difference, here...

I'm being more than just a little sarcastic here, admittedly, but really? Who's got "th3 r3al J33bus?" Pope Innocent III used his own brand of Christianity to justify the Inquisition, Pat Robinson uses his own brand of Christianity to justify natural disasters killing hundreds of innocent people, and the Westboro Baptist Church uses it's own brand of Christianity to justify their rabid hatemongering...

So, really, what's the "real" Christianity that separates itself from the rest of the overzealous psychotics out there? If I recall my history correctly, when Christian church leaders first got state-sponsorship back in ol' Rome, the first thing they did was go out and raze every other temple to the ground, slaughtering those present therein who refused to convert to the new state religion. And that was the first Christian church! They didn't even really have that much time to develop a psychotic, murderous fringe group...

So, again, with a more inclusive examination, please identify how there's a difference between murderous zealots of one stripe or another, please?


This is exactly what happens in Asatru, as it is often painted as a racist religion, due to the presence of racists who practice it and make a whole hell of a lot more noise than they should be allowed to. Christianity is the same thing. There are everything from Christian Identity racists to gay Christians, to Christians who supposedly love all people, etc. The bottom line that once someone uses a religion to further a political agenda, the true meaning of said religion (regardless of what religion we're talking about here) becomes lost.

RE: Nazis- Hitler actually denounced the old Norse/ Germanic gods and claimed to be a Christian. The use of runes on Nazi uniforms and Himmler's occultist beliefs are where a lot of the "the Nazis were really into the old Norse religion" connections come from, and they are usually completely inaccurate.

The Nazis had a cobbled together "pagan" spirituality that incorporated as much Greek, Roman and Egyptian occult practices as it did Norse ones. Their rituals and beliefs were mostly relegated to high ranking SS officers, and this was much more Himmler's doing than it was Hitler's. The Nazis actually jailed people who studied runes and the old Norse religion, so anytime people try and make a Nazi/ Asatru connection (including the people who practice the religion themselves) it is not inaccurate.

I feel the need to interject and remiond the non pagan posters here that religion is not a catalyst for racial hatred etc it is a vehicle for recruitment and instilling a mindset regardless what message you seek to emit to the masses religion is the quickest, I mean seriously just cause they practice odinism they are racist skin heads a little geneic dont you think? Racial hatred is disguised under many forms of theology including Christianity people eg: Christian Identity, KKK and many others all pollutring a christian ideal with pure racial hatred

Actually, that speech of Hitler's is entirely consistent with what I was saying. <snip> Look through some of that Nazi Christmas propaganda I linked to. Or read that bit from the Shoah site. It's the same kind of thing.

Religion aside (each to his own is my philosophy), as a history buff I like your style, Res Judicata. Concise, respectful and well-reasoned answers. So much debating of history on the net is based on the historical equivalent of urban myths and fake certainty where such certainty does not/cannot exist. Just sayin'... :-)

And, as an added bonus, by posting this I shamelessly get rid of the annoying "You haven't posted in weeks" nag message at the top of the page. High fives all round! ;-)

I feel the need to interject and remiond the non pagan posters here that religion is not a catalyst for racial hatred etc it is a vehicle for recruitment and instilling a mindset regardless what message you seek to emit to the masses religion is the quickest, I mean seriously just cause they practice odinism they are racist skin heads a little geneic dont you think? Racial hatred is disguised under many forms of theology including Christianity people eg: Christian Identity, KKK and many others all pollutring a christian ideal with pure racial hatred

Exactly.

Idealogues, whatever their stripe, employ their rhetoric to engage the emotions of the demographic they're trying to recruit in order to further their cause.

Republicans play to the moderately wealthy Christian white folks who are afraid of the third world brown people "takin' their jorbs." They play up the false oppression of their religion and their rights in order to fire up the less-than-adequately educated masses.

Democrats play to the lower middle class, to folks who are having a hard time making ends meet even with Government assistance, to the minority minority groups, and frequently spin things to imply that if anyone's inconvenienced slightly then their Constitutional rights are being ass-raped.

Christians and Muslims alike prey upon the ignorance of their flocks, inciting emotional outbursts devoid of independent evidence or critical thinking, based solely upon their magic books and mythological stories, justifying no end of negativity upon the other thereby.

Hate doesn't need a reason, just a vehicle. One reason I'm all for the abolition of religion isn't because I think it'll make the world a better place necessarily (people can always find a reason for doing evil), but because it'll remove one more bullshit excuse for doing evil and calling it good because "it's the will of Gawd."

While I don't disagree with you, how is this different from mainstream theistic religion? There is a line of transmission between the ancients and the modern practitioners in most cases of modern theism. Compare that to a guy who digs up religious works from a long-extinct civilisation, whose gods clearly didn't do so well, and decided "THIS HERE IS THE REAL ****!". I don't like either case but I think the latter is super-duper silly, like ha-ha look at that moron silly. At least when you're a Christian you have the excuse that you were raised to be silly in that way. As an Asatru, you're a dude who seriously decided of his own free will to take on dead beliefs.

I find reconstructionist western religions dinky in general, but maybe that's some inherent cultural bias of mine. If you told me you were going to start doing fire sacrifices ala the Rig Veda I'd probably be slightly more impressed, but still think you're being a twit.


I might argue that this lack of "religion" in China goes back long before the the Communist period. Spirituality and metaphysics never dominated Chinese culture the way it dominated Western Christian culture.Not the kind of spirituality we're thinking of, but if memory serves it took the Nationalist takeover to end the Imperial Sacrifices to Heaven, and sacrifices to Confucius and Confucianism and Daoism in general only became a problem once the Communists took over.

DID YOU KNOW...

the Gunn clan were defeated and chased out of scotland. apparently as the history goes they were called to a meeting by the rival clan and told not to bring any weapons. the came along empty handed and the rival clan turned up armed and chased them out of scotland. the Gunn clan later populated in cornwall which the the geographically furthest point away from scotland.

my grandad told me this story as he is a Gunn. there still bitter about it today.

IMHA im no skinhead lol

One of my Uncles was a Gunn, as far as /I know he was never chased out of Scotland at any time, he worked in the rolls Royce plant in Lanarkshire.

Your grandad was probably a lickspittle for the landlords during the clearances so had to hide in Cornwall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Gunn, nothing about your grandad's story here.

And a powerful orator with the ability to inspire and influence millions of people... half decent painter too, by all accounts... tee hee.

So what if he was ugly, or un-athletic? Those attributes don't mean he was less worthy of humanity, or an inferior example of it. Arguing that point is falling into the same mode of thought he and his cohorts did.

Hitler was mad as a bag of spanners, a war criminal, he perpetuated and allowed to be perpetuated acts of what can only be described as pure fucking evil. By all accounts he was a ****, but inferior? No.

According to his own standards, he would have been first in line to the gas chambers. It was absolutely impossible to proove he was arian (his father - if Alois Hitler was indeed his father - was an illegitimate child himself) and his appearance was the perfect image of what the Nazi's tried to attribute the jewish people with.

Thats the irony. By the standards of the white arian superiorist he was, he himself belonged to the lowest class of bottom-feeders. Those not worthy to live. His words and ideas, not mine.

Same goes for a lot of todays neo-nazis. Did you know that wearing a tattoo was deemed "asozial" in nazi germany? That the attribute "asozial" meant a free trip to poland? Isn't it funny how those shitheads run around with "arian" tattoos that would have brought them straight to Auschwitz?

BTW: He was a miserably bad painter. Think of a fith grader who happened to get some oil colors into his hands. I have seen some of his paintings.

As for his ability at holding speeches... ever heard one? Most german people of my generation who actually did wonder how a spitting idiot with such a bad grasp of the german language could ever lead anyone.

Fact is, he had better speakers to do the work for him (Goebbels really was a brilliant speaker) and if he spoke himself it was not his brilliant eloqency, but the content of his speeches, that swayed the masses. He offered easy solutions in a time of extreme distress.

Well there goes my shot at playing devils advocate...

This is just to funny to pass up. I just had to comment on all the hate and stereotyping!

I am involved with Team Fyrd and am an Odinist. We have competed the entire West Coast of the United States including Canada. There are many forms of grappling and we love them all! Our purpose is to give kids a positive outlet for them to learn sportsmanship and cultivate the inherited skills they were born with. We are not a political group, we are primarily a youth sports program for our religious organization, The Odinic-Rite. Are we ethno centric?.....yes. Are we proud of our folk?.....yes. Does our bloodline connect us with our ancestors and our Gods....yes. If it is severed so is the connection to our folk soul and spirituality. We do not wish for that to happen and will not sit idly by while it happens. If that offends too bad. It is unfortunate that Tyrsmann referred to Odinists as "Nazitru", I would never refer to Asatruer as "Wiccatruer" and discuss some of the things I have seen . It would equate us to the Protestants and the Catholics. Slagging each other off does no good for anyone.

We do not dress up like Vikings or Nazis, those are very short chapters in the history of our people. Our folkway goes back before written history. It is unfortunate much of it was destroyed, we do not want to re create the past, we want to create a future and learn from the past. We do not make excuses, apologies or dance the PC tango when some dumbass starts to point fingers and cry out " Racists, fascists or Nazis! It is those anti fascists who like to attack, slander and harass anyone who does not self hate, feel guilt ridden or subscribe to their deviant lifestyles. Communism is no substitute for Capitalism. Instead of a thousand rich families you would have three! Again, we are not a political group but we all have a right to our own opinions. So many others have been thrown around here I feel obliged to share mine.

Christianity, whether you want to admit it or not, is a universalist cult designed to destroy a folks heritage, culture and identity regardless of skin color. It is a middle eastern religion, so very sad most people are not cognizant of it. If you are not Christian, you are anti Christian or an "Anti -Christ". Most of the celebrated holidays are Odinist or heathen in origin. A people with no identity or connection to their past is much easier to control, take a look at history....remember Constantine or Charlemagne? The conquered too many different people and needed to be under one banner, for ease of management, so declare one religion for all and watch how efficient things become. Destroy and demonize their beliefs and cultural sites and within a couple generations their spirit is broken and the money making can begin. Take a look at Native Americans, taken to the brink of extinction, are they racist for saving their way of life for future generations to enjoy? How about the Hawaiians? One of the conditions for the surrender of Japan was that no churches or synagogues could occupy mainland Japan. Why, because the Japenese leaders understood what the true purpose of Christianity was, that it would truly be the end of Japan. Shinto is the folk religion of Japan, are the Samurai evil? No. They are folk legends. Why, because their connection with their ancestors remain! Once something is gone there is no bringing it back.

So off my tangent.......if you have questions about Odinism check it out for yourself. Just like other religions their are different groups and schools of thought. We are not anti anyone we are pro us..... and yes, even Odinists like BJJ! That was a way old video. You should check out our latest on youtube!

Many Hails and see you on the mats!

Asrekyr OR

You're right that most major holidays are pagan in orgin, but I can't really think of any that would be specifically "odinist". In fact, as far as I know, Christmas (winter solstice) and easter (spring festvities by many other names, of course) are both celebrations that have their roots in neolithic times. Sure, christianity shang-hai'd many pagan celebrations, no doubt, but I'm sure the norse and germanic people stole, borrowed and converted their holidays from some other ancient festivity as well.



We do not make excuses, apologies or dance the PC tango when some dumbass starts to point fingers and cry out " Racists, fascists or Nazis! It is those anti fascists who like to attack, slander and harass anyone who does not self hate, feel guilt ridden or subscribe to their deviant lifestyles.

Yeah those gosh durn anti-fascist and their facist hating ways. A totally unsubstantiated distrust of a political viewpoint that almsot tore the world apart a little more than half a century ago. And not being a fascist is clearly the same as being a self-hating deviant(?).

No, wait. What?

Are we ethno centric?.....yes. Are we proud of our folk?.....yes. Does our bloodline connect us with our ancestors and our Gods....yes. If it is severed so is the connection to our folk soul and spirituality.

Just out of interest: How do you connect yourself to the ancient Germanic tribes?

- I mean, between the rise of Christianity and and the begin of scientific ancestry research, isn't there an entire millenium when you don't know where you came from.

I mean, I can somewhat understand Skandinavian WODANists, but you live on the other edge of the world. For all you know, any Greek, Celt, Roman, Arab, Semite, Slavic, Turk, American Indian, INDIAN Indian, or even a freaking MONGOL could have been your direct ancestor, and you would not know it.

So, depending on how a genetic genealogy check turns out, you might consider worshipping Jupiter, Baal, or maybe Vishnu instead.

So, depending on how a genetic genealogy check turns out, you might consider worshipping Jupiter, Baal, or maybe Vishnu instead.

And there's the crux of conversion... Why would any rationale being determine that one set of mythological beings is any more legitimately "real" than another set? Why one pantheon over another? What proof, what evidence, beyond wanting to align one's self with something neat-o kool, is there to infer that Thor (cool as he may be) is any more real than Baal, Jupes, or the V-man?

Seriously. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm trying to inject a little humor into the question.

If you were brought up as Religion A, and decided it just wasn't "for you," what, beyond the coolness of wolf pelts, bear skins, runes, axes, and big, meaty feasts, makes the Nordic gods any more real, any more legitimate, any more godly than J.C. and the funky bunch?

Sometimes there's the very real threat of death. Convert or die.

Thank you for clarifying. Nazitru is the racist sect, and otherwise it is not? I'm not an expert on this subject matter.
Those fucking Nazis ruin everything.

They like the Norse thing because it is a specifically "white people" history. So they jump on it.

Personally, I wear the Mjolnir every day, and I could care less about your heritage, or sexual identity. No seriously, I don't want to here about it! lol

Were I a black man, I would wear and African symbol of power, were I an asian it would be eastern charms. But I'm a honkey. Three different kinds of northwestern, European, honky. So I wear an ancient totem of my people.

And no, I don't hate you. You'd have to do something truly heinous for me to hate you. And then it would be about your actions, and not your skin. I'm nor more a Nazi with my hammer, than a Buddhist is with a swastika.

I think it's perfectly fine to proud of your ancestors too. They must have been successful if you are here today. And that counts for everybody, regardless of creed or color. Be proud of your people. Your family line has succeed for 10,000 generations. Through all the disasters, wars, and struggle. Many didn't make it. You did. That's proof of your potential strength right there.

The supremacists **** it all up with their premises though. "Supremacy" eh? By trying to eradicate every other culture, they put themselves at odds with every other person on the planet. Kind of a retarded idea IMO.

I don't know who these "Odinist" bjj'ers are, but there is definitely a Nazi stigma that you must deal with if you invoke the old gods.

So, depending on how a genetic genealogy check turns out, you might consider worshipping Jupiter, Baal, or maybe Vishnu instead.
Well, if you want to get that technical, we should all be moon barking paleolithic animists, that run in fear every time there's a lightening storm.

Me, I know where my geneaoligy comes from, and those pale asses were siting in the cold and overcast weather for a loooooooooong time, smak in the middle of a Viking thoroughfare. So whatever they became after the tyranny of papists converted all by sword and fire is irrelevant to me. I will not recognize the fruits of their atrocities any more than the original bearers of Thor's hammer did in their day.