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Tenguru
2/06/2004 12:25pm,
Is American Kenpo an effective style? Many of their self defense techniques are extremely long (10-12 moves), with elaborate setups and positioning of both the attacker and the attackee. Any chance this would be street effective? Discuss.

kismasher
2/06/2004 12:29pm,
no comment.

patfromlogan
2/06/2004 12:38pm,
Do a search on Punisher comments about AK. Simply put, no.

I do know a colored belt who used it, but it was more of getting the attacker to do the right move that 'fit' the learned defense after being punched for a while to get the sequence started, gee, that's real clear but I'm too lazy to rewrite. Once he got the sequence started it worked just fine.

I don't think much of AK myself, and I llke Kempo a lot. Just not Parker lineage unless it's the type of teacher who changes it enough to make it easier and less weird. Hawaiian (generic term) Kempo has more practical self-defense drilling.

Benny Urquidez was Kempo

John Hackleman is Kempo (boxing and kickboxing champ)

Chuck Liddell is a third dan in Hawaian Kempo (not generic term)


check out
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6407

Ronin
2/06/2004 12:41pm,
keith Hackney was from American Kenpo, of course he did NOT fight using kenpo, or at least id didn't LOOK like Kenpo.

kismasher
2/06/2004 12:44pm,
yeah, but didn't Keith Hackney have his own style called White Tiger

also Keith Hackney has arms the size of buicks.

Tenguru
2/06/2004 12:46pm,
Yea. I've been training Parkers' Kenpo for about 7 months. My teacher is a highly ranked student of some the "top" AK guys. Yet, during sparring, I've never seen him use any of the 150+ SDT on a resisting partner. He may use a 2 hit combo, here, a combo there, but never any of the elaborate stuff that you have to learn in class. Makes me think it's all a waste of time. However, the guy can fight. He just doesn't use the techniques that he teaches. I'm thinking about leaving and doing MT/GJJ.

katana
2/06/2004 4:18pm,
Originally posted by Tenguru
Yea. I've been training Parkers' Kenpo for about 7 months. My teacher is a highly ranked student of some the "top" AK guys. Yet, during sparring, I've never seen him use any of the 150+ SDT on a resisting partner. He may use a 2 hit combo, here, a combo there, but never any of the elaborate stuff that you have to learn in class. Makes me think it's all a waste of time. However, the guy can fight. He just doesn't use the techniques that he teaches. I'm thinking about leaving and doing MT/GJJ.

The fact that you made this observation so early in your training puts you well ahead of most people. If he fights like another style, then maybe you should just learn that style and cut out the middleman.

Tenguru
2/06/2004 4:22pm,
well said, Katana.

Freddy
2/06/2004 5:15pm,
Originally posted by kismasher
yeah, but didn't Keith Hackney have his own style called White Tiger

also Keith Hackney has arms the size of buicks.

Have you actually studied under Keith Hackney?

Punisher
2/06/2004 5:51pm,
Yea. I've been training Parkers' Kenpo for about 7 months. My teacher is a highly ranked student of some the "top" AK guys. Yet, during sparring, I've never seen him use any of the 150+ SDT on a resisting partner. He may use a 2 hit combo, here, a combo there, but never any of the elaborate stuff that you have to learn in class. Makes me think it's all a waste of time. However, the guy can fight. He just doesn't use the techniques that he teaches. I'm thinking about leaving and doing MT/GJJ.


Tenguru,

Ask your instructor about this and see what he says. I’ve never heard a valid explanation from someone still training in American Kenpo. He’ll most likely say something like you fight an “untrained person” with “SDT” and trained person like you do in sparring. I have a 2nd degree black in American Kenpo and my instructor has a 6th. If your goal in taking American is to explore theoretical motion and have fun stay. If you want to learn to fight, leave. Here is the straight dope about American Kenpo as I see it.

People often get confused about the intent of the “self-defense techniques” in the American Kenpo system, including American Kenpo schools and practioners. These often long and complicated prearranged partner drills with cool names like Five Swords, Lone Kimono, and Dance of Death are NOT possible to be replicate verbatim in real combat, and in my opinion we never intended to be.

What American Kenpo calls “techniques” are physical examples of motion and fighting strategies, not recommend fighting combinations or accurate representations of combat. They are intended to teach the student concepts and principles of American Kenpo beyond the basic sequence of moves. After the initial defense and the first few counters they are an almost totally theoretical and academic exercise. The intended vehicle for taking these principles and movements and transferring into realistic applications was what Ed Parker called “freestyle” sparring. Ed Parker separated sparring into two major subgroups. Tournament sparring had restricted targets and weaponry, freestyle didn’t.

The biggest problem with American Kenpo isn’t really with the “self-defense techniques”, it’s the strategy behind them. A lot of the strategy shown in the techniques is flawed. Note, I said flawed not useless. Almost anything will work good for something but in a real fighting situation you don’t have the luxury of doing “anything” you have to do the right thing. The techniques are not good at teaching someone how to do this. The self-defense techniques are often self-defeating by showing the a valuable concept or principle but the wrong strategy for a given situation. The techniques seem to be designed to teach the student how to move, but not really when or why. That’s ok when you have freestyle sparring acting as a “catch-all” and teaching the students what works best (and worst) against what.

As American Kenpo schools started to move away from freestyle sparring for safety and liability reasons a crucial link in the chain from theory to application was broken. I can’t speak for every school but people at mine falsely thought of the techniques as the tool for teaching application and sparring as more of a game. It got to the point where they were considered completely separate. In sparring you could develop good strategies, but the restricted targets and weapons limited the number of strategies and ways you could apply them. From the techniques you got possible and theoretical applications, but not always the most effective ones and never got to transfer it to a spontaneous and realistic situation.

When we eventually tried to test our “self-defense” training is a realistic manner, things fell apart. Some people would try to do something exactly in like the techniques, and mostly they would fail because they were using bad strategy. The people that used good strategy usually only did applications resembling the techniques allowed in sparring and were often told their movements were too “basic” and they need to use more “advanced” weaponry and such. Only two types of people were able to demonstrate the ability to defend themselves in the manner we were expecting to see, the incredibly skilled and the incredibly lucky.

Punisher
2/06/2004 5:53pm,
"keith Hackney was from American Kenpo, of course he did NOT fight using kenpo, or at least id didn't LOOK like Kenpo."

Hackney fought like someone who did freestyle sparring in American Kenpo.

Tenguru
2/06/2004 6:18pm,
Thanks Punisher. That was the type of info I was hoping for. As for sparring at my school, well, we didn't do any for the 1st 4 months I've been there. Then we had a visit from a certian 8th dan from Cali that shall remain nameless. Now we spar most of the time and the SDT are an afterthought. I can tell that many of the blackbelt students didn't do much sparring, as I can kick the sh*t out of them. literally. However, the instructor is a top notch badass. I would not want to have to fight this guy. His ability as an artist is the only reason I'm still there, not because of the style itself. Do you still train in American Kenpo, or strictly 5 animal Kenpo? Do you do any other styles of martial arts?

Tenguru
2/06/2004 6:20pm,
Riddle me this Punisher. Why do so many Kenpo blackbelts stomp their feet when they do their SDT?

SlimJim
2/06/2004 6:42pm,
Originally posted by kismasher
yeah, but didn't Keith Hackney have his own style called White Tiger

also Keith Hackney has arms the size of buicks.

Keith Hackney trained under Tom Saviano, who founded White Tiger Kenpo. Tom Saviano studied under John McSweeney, who started the Ireland Kenpo Karate Association.

And yes, Keith Hackney has arms the size of Buicks. I also recall him involved with Pancrase. Is that right?

katana
2/06/2004 6:46pm,
Punisher: Your response was excellent.

katana
2/06/2004 6:48pm,
Originally posted by Tenguru
Riddle me this Punisher. Why do so many Kenpo blackbelts stomp their feet when they do their SDT?

They also slap their chest a lot with the incoming hand as the other is going out. Speculation: I saw this demo and the only reason I came up with is that it added a sound effect that sounded good??? Kind of like a heavily starched karate Gi making a nice snapping sound on punches.