title says it all, should there be points in bjj competitions?

maybe a match should be 10 minutes and if no one submits their opponent is is declared a draw?

maybe the rorion gracie style of no time limits and you win by either tapping opponent or by getting 20 points ahead is a good compromise?


which do you feel is the best and WHY?

i personally feel that the rorion gracie approach is the best with no time limits and you only win by submission on by getting 20 points ahead.

i feel this is best because otherwise competitors start playing for points too much instead of trying to submit their opponent.


an example where i dont understand the points logic in BJJ:

if you have me mounted and i use the upa escape i score points even though i end up in YOUR guard. if you have me mounted and i use the elbow knee escape instead of the upa, then i dont score points and you end up in MY guard. does this seem logical? in BJJ i thought that no one worth their salt would let their opponent pull guard on them because of the danger of sweeps/submissions. so shouldn't the elbow knee escape (resulting in opponent in MY guard) get me more points than ending up in their guard via the upa escape?

if ive missed something very obvious then please correct me

For people who don't like points, US Grappling already has submission-only tournaments (http://www.usgrappling.us/events/submission-only-i/), which apparently have been functioning very well so far. You would think it impossible to finish all the matches, but from what I've read (http://www.nhbgear.com/forum/index.php/topic,89179.0.html), up until now its worked great.

As I mention in my Gracie Combatives (http://slideyfoot.blogspot.com/2009/08/dvd-review-gracie-combatives-rener.html#sportvssd) review (http://slideyfoot.blogspot.com/2009/08/dvd-review-gracie-combatives-rener.html#sportvssd), I would like to see Rorion enter his students into one of those tournaments, given that it appears, at least ostensibly, to remove one of his central objections to 'sport' BJJ.

an example where i dont understand the points logic in BJJ:

if you have me mounted and i use the upa escape i score points even though i end up in YOUR guard.

The upa is not a sweep. Its worth nothing.


i feel this is best because otherwise competitors start playing for points too much instead of trying to submit their opponent

Why is playing for control a problem?

Why is playing for control a problem?

Maybe they just think it's dirty if you're doing it for points, control should be sought for its own inherit virtues. 'cause, ****, if you can reliably sub elite grapplers from under mount, pulling mount starts to look really attractive. Yes, hyperbole.

The upa is not a sweep. Its worth nothing.



Why is playing for control a problem?



im a white belt so im probably wrong, but isn't a sweep going from your opponent on top of you to you on top of your opponent? a bit like the kimura/hip bump sweep goes from opponent in your guard to you mounted on opponent?


playing for position is no doubt important, but what use is position if you dont use it? if i get side mount i dont want to just lie there and wait for the match to end so i win on points, i want to submit my opponent.

i just thought it would be interesting to get other peoples perspectives on the point system. like i said, im a white belt so im new to everything and probably dont understand a lot of the reasons

A sweep is when you go from a neutral position to a dominate one.

When have a no-points, submission only league here called the 'Sub League' and guess what? People still stall, even without points. So there are lots of draws nd since it's a round-robin tournement, there are lots of rematchs and the whole thing takes forever.

There is also the new abu Dhabi rules, where there are no points scored for the first half of the match, which results in the Jeff Monson strategy of doing nothing for the first half of the match.

It just isn't practical to eliminate points... Imagine completing at Grappler's Quest? It could take forever...

I like points. If someone stalls, and you can't stop it...you gotta up your game.

The whole first round no points second round points seems like a good compromise though.

It just isn't practical to eliminate points... Imagine completing at Grappler's Quest? It could take forever...


fair point. the link that slideyfoot posted about submission only tournaments had some matches lasting 25 minutes. knowing when to warm up would be frustrating too i guess.

im a white belt so im probably wrong, but isn't a sweep going from your opponent on top of you to you on top of your opponent? a bit like the kimura/hip bump sweep goes from opponent in your guard to you mounted on opponent?You have to have established guard and your legs have to be in play.


what use is position if you dont use itControl and restraint are both valid practical uses for jiujitsu.


A sweep is when you go from a neutral position to a dominate one.Wrong. Its when you put someone on their back from your guard using your legs and keep them there.

Anyways, someone once told me that if you want to stop stalling, get better. If a guy sits in your guard and stalls you out, you can't sweep. Work on it. If they're stalling in side control, you need to work on reversals, guard retention and sweeps. If they stall from their guard, your posture and passing needs work. Bottom line, skill development is key, not rule changes.

Wrong. Its when you put someone on their back from your guard using your legs and keep them there.

So a Granby roll and other sweeps I do from Turtle aren't sweeps by your definition because I don't use my legs? That's retarded.

Turtle "guard" is a pretty controversial position, but the general rule is that its your obligation to escape a bad position, hence reversals from side control and the like aren't counted as sweeps.

To further clarify, here's the official IBJJF definition:



F-) THE SWEEP: is when the athlete that is underneath has his opponent in his guard(in between his legs ) or the half guard (having one of his adversary’s legs between his) and is able to get on top of his adversary by inverting his position. 2 POINTS.
Observation 1: it will not be considered a sweep if the move does not begin from inside the guard or half guard.
Observation 2: When the athlete sweeping advances his position to the back of his opponent during the attempted sweep, he is awarded 2 points.
Observation 3: If starting in a guard position, an athlete attempts a sweep and both athletes return to their feet and the competitor attempting the sweep executes a takedown remaining on top, he will be awarded 2 points.

I have trained in BJJ for years, and also work security for a bar. From practical experience in security I can easily attest to the importance of position and control, but in a real confrontation you need to have the ability to finish the fight. The goal in BJJ is to increase your effectiveness on the street, and the rules should reflect this goal. I personally advocate the Rorion Gracie method. The reason for this is because people like to take advantage of the rules. If there's a time limit they get points and stall until the clock runs out. If the match can be won through a limited amount of points you begin to create fighters/practitioners who have excellent transition skills, but lackluster submissions. For those who argue that no time limits can create excessively long matches, I agree that this is sometimes the case. However, these long matches promote several levels of growth. In the case of two very evenly matched individuals in a 30+min match they both are being challenged and forced to break past their boundaries. In this way they benifit. Also, among spectators it allows lower level practitioners to learn new things through observation, or perhaps clarify a point they were confused on. In the event that a person has beat someone by 20 points their domination of the match simply cannot be questioned. That's my take on the situation.

Turtle "guard" is a pretty controversial position, but the general rule is that its your obligation to escape a bad position, hence reversals from side control and the like aren't counted as sweeps.

I'll give you that, since there is so much discussion on viability of turtle.


To further clarify, here's the official IBJJF definition:

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I think that's for simplicity. I know that judges, at least as Telles has mentioned, recognize turtle as guard.

I'll give you that, since there is so much discussion on viability of turtle.No there isn't. There's discussion to whether or not those are sweeps, not whether or not its a viable position.


I think that's for simplicity. I know that judges, at least as Telles has mentioned, recognize turtle as guardIf you're telles, sure. If you're Joe Blow they'll probably call it as the rules dictate. I take it you train with Telles?