Matt Phillips
7/16/2009 8:50am,
Here is an interview I conducted with American San Shou pioneer Josh Bartholomew in which he talks about the the history, future, and state of the art of Chinese Kickboxing in this country. And his epic rivalry with Cung Lee.
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Let's start with Cung, as he is the 'face of the sport'. You have fought him more times than probably anyone on the planet. How many times did the two of you go at it, and what can you tell us about him as a fighter.
I fought Cung in the ring five times between 1994 and 1997. To my knowledge I do not know any Sanda fighters in the US that fought more then 2 times. When we fought it was in the beginning of his career and he was mostly just a wrestler. He did not hit me above the waist until our third fight. He was finding himself as a fighter back then and has become much more rounded over the years. What he really brought to the sport was a new level of integrating wrestling into Sanda in the US.
Anything else you'd like to say about Cung?
Well for the record, he lost 4 fights as an amateur (none to me) '95 Worlds (Russia), '97 Worlds (Iran by DQ), '99 Russia, and the Shiokan in I believe 1998?
Can you tell us a little about Jason Yee and how the Boston team got started?
Jason is the father of San Shou in the US Cung is the poster boy but Jason won a Bronze at the first World Championship in Beijing in 1991. Cung did not even know what San Shou was back then. Jason was one of only two fighters on the team and trained in China with Ugibo (sp?) a top fighter and trainer at the time. I was in the first San Shou class in the US when he started training for worlds in late 1990. He was on the US team for both forms and fighting. We started competing as a team in 1994 when I first fought Cung. We existed as a program and class before that Jason and I had fought a few times and we tried out for the National Team again in 1993. The real kickoff event for us as a team was in 1995 in New York. I was the first San Shou only event in the US. We grew from there to win more then 70 National level titles between 1994 and 2003 when the nationals fell apart and most of the teams stopped dealing with the USAWKF, the main San Shou organization.
The specific kickboxing style one sees practiced in a gym like Redline, was that developed over time, or was it already in this form in China/Russia when modern competition started in the 90's?
It has changed greatly over time as counters to techniques were developed. We were a big round kick and leg kick school in the beginning but we learned how easy they can be defended and we moved to more reliable techniques. We steal from other styles all the time. If it can work for us we use it. Of all the other counties styles I would say our San Shou is more like Russia then China.
At your gym, which style is dominant: the Chinese or the Russian?
Depends on the person but most of us fight more like Russians. More damage and more hunting methodical style. China will out score you but Russia will punish you.
What are the differences in style and format between San Shou, SanDa, and Draka?
The way I like to describe it is; San Shou is fought on a Lei Thai, a 8mx8m platform with no ropes. Push outs count and there are no knees. Sanda is the pro style in China and there are knees and you fight in a traditional ring. Rest of the rules are the same.
Draka was a Russian version of Sanda up to 12 rounds and you could throw over the ropes if you could pull it off. It was absolutely brutal. Imagine 12 rounds of pro Muay Thai with full throws.
Muay Thai has obviously had a huge influence on MMA. Do you think SanDa is the next big thing for MMA striking, or is it too small to have a real impact?
It should be but it is really small. There are only a handfull of coaches that really understand it in the MMA aspect. Gyms that get can really do it well are, ours Readline Fight Sports, Cung's USH Gym, Rudi Otts Gym, Brent Hamby in Oakland, NY Sanda in NY, Mike Altman in Houston, and Scott Sheelly in Ohio. These schools have a more pure San Shou/Sanda background and lineage in the sport.
Do you see any evidence of a Draka influence on Combat SAMBO fighters like Fedor?
I don't know about Draka but there is clearly a major Sambo aspect to Fedor. Sambo I believe is really his first love. But I do not really know beyond what I have seen.
What do you see as the relative strengths and weaknesses between Muaythai and SanDa in kickboxing? MMA?
There is nothing in Muaythai that does not exist in modern Sanda. There is just a great deal more you are allowed to do in Sanda. There is no restrictions beyond not trying to break a joint or a neck in a throw. There are many weaknesses we train our fighters to take advantage of when fighting thai fighters. One of them being they think there are no weaknesses, but if you want to learn them come to our gym. They seem to work so far since we are 13-2 vs Muay Thai fighters and only 2 were Sanda Rules fights.
Bullshido fields numerous requests for referrals to SanDa/San Shou programs from all over the country. Can you provide a short list of quality programs you know of?
There is only short list mostly as I listed before. The best coach, by far, is Jason Yee. Jason was prodigy at finding an opponents weakness His best students list among the best ever to fight in the US (Loriaux, Perry, Norman, Pope, Ott, Bartholomew) . With the exception of Cung Le himself (not his students), Jason's best guys beat your best guys 95% of the time. He is mostly retired from competition coaching. There are still, to some degree, the big 6 gyms. These were/ are the gyms that have produced 95% of the nation level quality fighters over the years. Redline Fight Sports in Cambridge MA (Formally Boston San Shou), NY Sanda in, well, NY, Cung Le's gym (mostly MMA now) and Rudi Otts in Milpitas (San Francisco), EMB in Oakland (Brent Hamby's gym), Scott Sheely's Gym in Ohio, and Mike Altman's in Houston. That is 7 but Rudi split from Cung. There are a few more that are ok but these are the gyms that have produced the best fighters with few exceptions.
Your team mate and fellow coach Marvin Perry was invited to fight in K-1. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Was he offered a specific match, or just an invite to a specific event.
He was asked to be in the main tournament in Vegas but was unable to due to injury (back) and once as a super fight I believe same injury prevented that. Was also looked at for Chuck Norris's WCL but he felt the rules were too restrictive.
Where do you see SanDa/San Shou heading in the future?
Not sure. Cung is driving it more into the main stream with his MMA fights so hopefully people will see the potential and break out.
Finally, Why no moustache?
It was time for a change.
Thanks Josh!
Your Welcome.
Josh Bartholowmew retired from San Shou competition with a record of 33-5 with all five of his losses coming from his rival Cung Le. Anyone interested in contacting, or training with him should contact Redline Fight Sports - 614 Mass Ave Cambridge MA 02139 - (617) 337-3356 www.redlinefightsports.com (http://www.redlinefightsports.com)
****
Let's start with Cung, as he is the 'face of the sport'. You have fought him more times than probably anyone on the planet. How many times did the two of you go at it, and what can you tell us about him as a fighter.
I fought Cung in the ring five times between 1994 and 1997. To my knowledge I do not know any Sanda fighters in the US that fought more then 2 times. When we fought it was in the beginning of his career and he was mostly just a wrestler. He did not hit me above the waist until our third fight. He was finding himself as a fighter back then and has become much more rounded over the years. What he really brought to the sport was a new level of integrating wrestling into Sanda in the US.
Anything else you'd like to say about Cung?
Well for the record, he lost 4 fights as an amateur (none to me) '95 Worlds (Russia), '97 Worlds (Iran by DQ), '99 Russia, and the Shiokan in I believe 1998?
Can you tell us a little about Jason Yee and how the Boston team got started?
Jason is the father of San Shou in the US Cung is the poster boy but Jason won a Bronze at the first World Championship in Beijing in 1991. Cung did not even know what San Shou was back then. Jason was one of only two fighters on the team and trained in China with Ugibo (sp?) a top fighter and trainer at the time. I was in the first San Shou class in the US when he started training for worlds in late 1990. He was on the US team for both forms and fighting. We started competing as a team in 1994 when I first fought Cung. We existed as a program and class before that Jason and I had fought a few times and we tried out for the National Team again in 1993. The real kickoff event for us as a team was in 1995 in New York. I was the first San Shou only event in the US. We grew from there to win more then 70 National level titles between 1994 and 2003 when the nationals fell apart and most of the teams stopped dealing with the USAWKF, the main San Shou organization.
The specific kickboxing style one sees practiced in a gym like Redline, was that developed over time, or was it already in this form in China/Russia when modern competition started in the 90's?
It has changed greatly over time as counters to techniques were developed. We were a big round kick and leg kick school in the beginning but we learned how easy they can be defended and we moved to more reliable techniques. We steal from other styles all the time. If it can work for us we use it. Of all the other counties styles I would say our San Shou is more like Russia then China.
At your gym, which style is dominant: the Chinese or the Russian?
Depends on the person but most of us fight more like Russians. More damage and more hunting methodical style. China will out score you but Russia will punish you.
What are the differences in style and format between San Shou, SanDa, and Draka?
The way I like to describe it is; San Shou is fought on a Lei Thai, a 8mx8m platform with no ropes. Push outs count and there are no knees. Sanda is the pro style in China and there are knees and you fight in a traditional ring. Rest of the rules are the same.
Draka was a Russian version of Sanda up to 12 rounds and you could throw over the ropes if you could pull it off. It was absolutely brutal. Imagine 12 rounds of pro Muay Thai with full throws.
Muay Thai has obviously had a huge influence on MMA. Do you think SanDa is the next big thing for MMA striking, or is it too small to have a real impact?
It should be but it is really small. There are only a handfull of coaches that really understand it in the MMA aspect. Gyms that get can really do it well are, ours Readline Fight Sports, Cung's USH Gym, Rudi Otts Gym, Brent Hamby in Oakland, NY Sanda in NY, Mike Altman in Houston, and Scott Sheelly in Ohio. These schools have a more pure San Shou/Sanda background and lineage in the sport.
Do you see any evidence of a Draka influence on Combat SAMBO fighters like Fedor?
I don't know about Draka but there is clearly a major Sambo aspect to Fedor. Sambo I believe is really his first love. But I do not really know beyond what I have seen.
What do you see as the relative strengths and weaknesses between Muaythai and SanDa in kickboxing? MMA?
There is nothing in Muaythai that does not exist in modern Sanda. There is just a great deal more you are allowed to do in Sanda. There is no restrictions beyond not trying to break a joint or a neck in a throw. There are many weaknesses we train our fighters to take advantage of when fighting thai fighters. One of them being they think there are no weaknesses, but if you want to learn them come to our gym. They seem to work so far since we are 13-2 vs Muay Thai fighters and only 2 were Sanda Rules fights.
Bullshido fields numerous requests for referrals to SanDa/San Shou programs from all over the country. Can you provide a short list of quality programs you know of?
There is only short list mostly as I listed before. The best coach, by far, is Jason Yee. Jason was prodigy at finding an opponents weakness His best students list among the best ever to fight in the US (Loriaux, Perry, Norman, Pope, Ott, Bartholomew) . With the exception of Cung Le himself (not his students), Jason's best guys beat your best guys 95% of the time. He is mostly retired from competition coaching. There are still, to some degree, the big 6 gyms. These were/ are the gyms that have produced 95% of the nation level quality fighters over the years. Redline Fight Sports in Cambridge MA (Formally Boston San Shou), NY Sanda in, well, NY, Cung Le's gym (mostly MMA now) and Rudi Otts in Milpitas (San Francisco), EMB in Oakland (Brent Hamby's gym), Scott Sheely's Gym in Ohio, and Mike Altman's in Houston. That is 7 but Rudi split from Cung. There are a few more that are ok but these are the gyms that have produced the best fighters with few exceptions.
Your team mate and fellow coach Marvin Perry was invited to fight in K-1. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Was he offered a specific match, or just an invite to a specific event.
He was asked to be in the main tournament in Vegas but was unable to due to injury (back) and once as a super fight I believe same injury prevented that. Was also looked at for Chuck Norris's WCL but he felt the rules were too restrictive.
Where do you see SanDa/San Shou heading in the future?
Not sure. Cung is driving it more into the main stream with his MMA fights so hopefully people will see the potential and break out.
Finally, Why no moustache?
It was time for a change.
Thanks Josh!
Your Welcome.
Josh Bartholowmew retired from San Shou competition with a record of 33-5 with all five of his losses coming from his rival Cung Le. Anyone interested in contacting, or training with him should contact Redline Fight Sports - 614 Mass Ave Cambridge MA 02139 - (617) 337-3356 www.redlinefightsports.com (http://www.redlinefightsports.com)