I'd like to bounce an idea off of you guys, since some of you seem to take a very scientific approach to your training and analysis of technique.

In my branch of Southern Mantis,(Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai-Lum Wing-Fei's line) the student is told to practice the first form, Sam Bo Ging (we say Ging, meaning power, rather than gin, meaning arrow/scissor) at four am. Since doing this, I have noticed a few things.

One, the form is becoming ingrained in me. I am falling into the proper body posture and structures very naturally when I train, including sparring-when under stress, it is easy to fall back on old stuff.

Two- I am becoming more focused and aggressive. I get into a zone, where I feel I am penetrating my opponent (cheun-sum -heart penetration)definately more aggressive.


Now,(WARNING: LARPer stuff ahead. Enter at your own risk...) this branch is known to contain sun-da-spirit boxing. But it is not a separate practice. You don't chang-sun (invoke spirits) at the altar, burn incense,chant, etc.
It is woven into the practice itself. Not in a spooky (wooo-oooo-ooo ) way, but in a way that "changes" you, the way you feel, act, and respond.

This is something my teacher warned me about. That" it will change you. You will get more aggressive,
and some people have a hard time separating themselves"

I feel that it is the posture-chin tucked, sacrum tucked,chest swallowed, which Montaigue spoke of in accessing the "reptilian brain," in his works, as well as the technique itself, which is very aggressive-attack the attack, intercept his intent, strike fast, hard,continuous attacks with intent to hurt, that creates this mindset.
(I think that is where less educated people get the idea that it is spiritual possession, when it is simply psychological conditioning)

But the four am stuff has me stumped.

I know that a former Hung Kuen Sifu told me to always practice forms upon rising, so it is ingrained in you. Sort of like having a clean slate from which to write upon. It really works, btw.

I was wondering if REM interruption has any effect, or that the subconcious and concious mind are more "connected" at this time.

I know I have caught Flak from some in "Mo-Lum", who see my questions as a poor reflection on my teacher. "If he's studying under so and so, why doesn't he ask him? Isn't he being taught?" That's bullshit. Most of it from petty, jealous, gossiping old hens-oh, we call them Sifus. Which is why my teacher is "underground." ****'em.

I have always been a seeker of knowledge, and I like to get other people's ideas on things, sometimes just out of curiosity to see what people know..and don't know.
Anyway, let me pick your brains and get your opinions on this practice.

You are practicing your techniques over and over until they become second nature, because if you don't, they won't be there when you need them. This is not exclusive to kung fu at all.

The way you start your day will effect the rest of your day. It's all pretty basic stuff.

In China, picking rice and shoveling **** are full-time jobs and best started early.

So you do gongfu even earlier.

If you have a job other than picking rice and shoveling ****, it may not be necessary.

I'm guessing that anyone who is dedicated to the process enough to get their ass up at 4am is going to be dedicated enough to do it correctly. I don't see much magic in that.

i have heard that late at night or very early in the morning is the best time to stretch.

i have also heard that sunrise is the best time to do forms work, and chi gung.

i have never heard any convincing argument for them however, and my personal experience has been that different people operate on different internal clocks. left to my own devices i would be up late at night and sleep until noon, so my training work revolve around when i feel most energized.

i know that others have different internal clocks and like to wake up early and go to bed early. i'm not sure i would put a lot of value on the time of day that the training takes place.

of course, do what works for you, i'm certainly not saying that you are wrong. if you feel that it is of value, i encourage you to explore it.

I'm guessing that anyone who is dedicated to the process enough to get their ass up at 4am is going to be dedicated enough to do it correctly. I don't see much magic in that.
4 AM is interesting, specifically, though. It's "Gestapo time", when your brain is at its lowest level of average activity.

If you're woken up at 4:00 AM you're not able to process things well, as you all probably know from being woken up or waking up at 4:00 AM.

Why do they call it Gestapo time?

Rivington-picking rice etc has nothing to do with it. Lam Wing Fei was a TCM doctor,as well as a Taoist from Mao San sect. not a common laborer. Trying to dig a little deeper than simply practice and convenience.
I am more concerned with what state the brain and body are in. During sleep-especially during REM sleep, certain hormonal changes, chemical secretions occur,melatonin, homocyctine, nerological repair, etc. I am wondeering what the connections might be.

That being said, I do appreciate your input. Like CSI, nothing is insignificant. Leave no stone unturned. Heck, for all I know, Lam Sang also owned a resteraunt and his students were workers. maybe they just trained when they got off work!
Still, let's see what turns up.

Why do they call it Gestapo time?

That's when they wake you up to drag you away.

Rivington-picking rice etc has nothing to do with it. Lam Wing Fei was a TCM doctor,as well as a Taoist from Mao San sect. not a common laborer.

Did he develop or discover the 4AM technique, or transmit it down the line from his own teachers?

Doing forms or practicing technique at 4am is just one step more serious/dedicated that practicing the form at home or outside the dojo/gym/kwoon. Homework is important.

It's like taking a test--you should read through the whole test, reading all the questions without answering any of them, before starting. Spending three minutes reviewing it allows your unconscious to start working on the whole kebab while your conscious mind toils on the first few. There's good statistics that show improvement in scores with this technique on SATs and the like.

Doing forms or shadowboxing at home (or on break at work) for thirty seconds is the same for me. It keeps it fresh in my head, reminds my brain to get good at it. One repetition (even with low intensity) mid-day or in the morning does more for memorization or improvement than 50 repetitions in a row at the same time every Tuesday and Thursday.

four am.

I don't know about 04:00 in particular, but I certainly get the most out of qi gong/yoga practice when I do it first thing in the morning (as per Frank's comment).

I don't know about 04:00 in particular, but I certainly get the most out of qi gong/yoga practice when I do it first thing in the morning (as per Frank's comment).

have you seen the same sorts of results when the "first thing in the morning" is at noon or 3pm?

i bet you always wake up early though.

have you seen the same sorts of results when the "first thing in the morning" is at noon or 3pm?

Sorry, I failed to explain myself properly: I meant whenever I wake up, which has been at different times of day at different points in my life.

according to some articles, 4am is REM sleep and there is actually increased brain activity.

according to some articles, 4am is REM sleep and there is actually increased brain activity.
I don't think REM sleep theory applies when you're awake.