Hi.

This is my first post. I'm hoping the forum can point me in the right direction.

I've read there is a growing interest in Bowie knife fighting and Bowie technique. Esp. some unique aspects, like back-cuts. IE - Taking advantage of the unique slightly concave clip point and edge. I am much more interested in the longer, lighter, and faster fighting Bowies than the large, slow camp Bowies. (BTW, isn't it interesting that when a fighting Bowie's features get exaggerated into a heavy brush chopping camp Bowie, it become a more handsome brush chopper, and sales go up? There must be an underlying beauty in the lines of original fighting Bowies?)

When I search YouTube for "how to videos", I find nothing. Ditto for Google Videos.

Can anyone help me find public domain info on the best use of a Bowie Knife? Something that can get a person past the beginner stage to where they could find a weekend seminar useful? ( ie - expensive seminar?)

It is tantalizing to read that Bowie style knife fighting evolved out of saber fighting. And that the Bowie knife was the last evolution of the fighting knife before pistols replaced them as side arms. Yet, I can find no info on actual usage. I've read there are historical references to schools in New Orleans and their manuals, but none have survived.

YouTube is FULL of kata and all sorts of asian m.a. stuff. Where are the Bowie knife techniques?

Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Opinions?
BTW, I have similar interest in small folders. Esp. those w/ pocket clips.

Hmmm ... well, the best Bowie guys I know are Colonel Dwight McLemore, the HMCA (Historical Maritime Combat Association) crew, and Pete Kautz of Alliance Martial Arts. They've all gone about as far as anyone can in recreating the Bowie "system", which is always going to be speculative since, as you already know, no instructional manuals have survived.
I don't think any of these guys offer public domain instructionals, though.

Dwight has two well-reviewed books out on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Bowie-Big-Knife-Fighting-System/dp/1581603894 and http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bowie-Techniques-Points-Fighting/dp/158160484X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238740540&sr=1-3 . He's also teaching an advanced Bowie class at the ISMAC conference in Detroit: http://artofcombat.org/public/thespis/Convention/2009Bowie&AdvancedBowie.htm

Hi.

This is my first post. I'm hoping the forum can point me in the right direction.

I've read there is a growing interest in Bowie knife fighting and Bowie technique. Esp. some unique aspects, like back-cuts. IE - Taking advantage of the unique slightly concave clip point and edge. I am much more interested in the longer, lighter, and faster fighting Bowies than the large, slow camp Bowies. (BTW, isn't it interesting that when a fighting Bowie's features get exaggerated into a heavy brush chopping camp Bowie, it become a more handsome brush chopper, and sales go up? There must be an underlying beauty in the lines of original fighting Bowies?)

When I search YouTube for "how to videos", I find nothing. Ditto for Google Videos.

Can anyone help me find public domain info on the best use of a Bowie Knife? Something that can get a person past the beginner stage to where they could find a weekend seminar useful? ( ie - expensive seminar?)

It is tantalizing to read that Bowie style knife fighting evolved out of saber fighting. And that the Bowie knife was the last evolution of the fighting knife before pistols replaced them as side arms. Yet, I can find no info on actual usage. I've read there are historical references to schools in New Orleans and their manuals, but none have survived.

YouTube is FULL of kata and all sorts of asian m.a. stuff. Where are the Bowie knife techniques?

Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Opinions?
BTW, I have similar interest in small folders. Esp. those w/ pocket clips.
hello

If my memory serves me well, I remember a lesson in a seminar on the use of Bowie/large knife duelling (missipi-missouri king of area) based on small sword.

I do not know if there is any manual or if it was based o something that reported at the time. I can investigate if you are interested.

Another avenue for you is may be to have a butcher at some Messer or barquemar/baselard video

A Messer is a very large knife from medieval Europe (called fashion in the uk). It shape is very Bowie like. A barqueman/basilar are north east French and Suisse variation on the Messer theme.
Basically it is really the long sword system with a few differences.

that being said it is not proper "bowie" if you see what I mean.

Phil

this is what i gathered up
That class was based on one given by Pete Kautz of Alliance Martial
Arts.

I am not certain that this magazine issue does contain the necessary
info, but a good starting place is:

http://www.modernknives.com/issue4.htm (mhtml:{41BA69F8-FACE-47EB-9780-3B5A6C937A2F}mid://00000248/!x-usc:http://www.modernknives.com/issue4.htm)

The article is about bowie knife and sabre, and I believe the
connection is that fencing masters taught European fencing in
America, and adapted the European sword techniques to the Bowie knife
and taught them to southern 'gentlemen'.

phil

Hmmm ... well, the best Bowie guys I know are Colonel Dwight McLemore, the HMCA (Historical Maritime Combat Association) crew, and Pete Kautz of Alliance Martial Arts. They've all gone about as far as anyone can in recreating the Bowie "system", which is always going to be speculative since, as you already know, no instructional manuals have survived.
I don't think any of these guys offer public domain instructionals, though.

Dwight has two well-reviewed books out on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Bowie-Big-Knife-Fighting-System/dp/1581603894 and http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bowie-Techniques-Points-Fighting/dp/158160484X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238740540&sr=1-3 . He's also teaching an advanced Bowie class at the ISMAC conference in Detroit: http://artofcombat.org/public/thespis/Convention/2009Bowie&AdvancedBowie.htm

What do you think of James Keating's material?

What do you think of James Keating's material?

I haven't seen it, but I know that he works closely with Pete Kautz.

Thanks, guys.

I guess there really is no public domain stuff to be had. Thanks for the replies.

It is interesting that no one studying Bowie is posting YouTube demonstrations.

Bowie is said to be last evolution of edged weapon combat before firearms became the norm. I'd think some Wester M.A.'ers would be into it. As all sorts of other Western M.A.s are online.

Seconding DdlR's recommendation of Dwight's books. He's also got a video out through Hock (mostly seminar footage, ims) which is good.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I've read there is a growing interest in Bowie knife fighting and Bowie technique.Well, the interest has been around and "growing" for well over a decade. I have a copy of Dwight's bowie book from back when it was self published, GBC bound, and titled "Paradoxes of a Deadly Myth."


Esp. some unique aspects, like back-cuts. IE - Taking advantage of the unique slightly concave clip point and edge.This is part of the "Deadly Myth" that Dwight talks about. The clip-point is hardly unique and the back-cut is a well known and historically venerable technique, existing in Sabre, Navaja, and many other systems right on back to two-handed "longsword" and (apparently) even the Roman Gladius.

I'm currently working on an article concerning some of these aspects of the Bowie (along with at least half a dozen other articles. :-)


I am much more interested in the longer, lighter, and faster fighting Bowies than the large, slow camp Bowies. (BTW, isn't it interesting that when a fighting Bowie's features get exaggerated into a heavy brush chopping camp Bowie, it become a more handsome brush chopper, and sales go up? There must be an underlying beauty in the lines of original fighting Bowies?)More of the modern myth. The Bowie knife had lots of historic variations and incarnations and a "fighter" could be anything but tended, more often, to have some sort of functional guard - but not always and certainly not by definition. There are plenty of examples of what we would, today, call "camp knife" style bowies flowing around the U.S. but far fewer of what we would call "fighting bowies," as typified by the classic Bagwell bowies with their distinctive in-curving quilliions.

In short, "camp bowie" and "fighting bowie" is more of a modern spin on the bowie than a historic one.


When I search YouTube for "how to videos", I find nothing. Ditto for Google Videos.Stay away from Youtube for MA instruction in general.


Can anyone help me find public domain info on the best use of a Bowie Knife? Something that can get a person past the beginner stage to where they could find a weekend seminar useful? ( ie - expensive seminar?)To reiterate: Dwight's material.

Might see if you can dig Keith Meyers' website out of the Internet Archive. He had some decent bowie material, ims. I recall articles on the Back-cut and the Snapcut.


It is tantalizing to read that Bowie style knife fighting evolved out of saber fighting.
It did. Maybe. For some people. It probably also evolved from Navaja. Maybe. For some people. Or the Kindjal. Maybe. For some people.

It's all speculation based on scholarly attempts to trace ethnic distinctions. The short version is that different ethnic extractions would most likely have adapted their own existing bladed systems, with their specific "flavors," to the bowie.


And that the Bowie knife was the last evolution of the fighting knife before pistols replaced them as side arms.More of the "Deadly Myth."

But it's a really, REALLY attractive and fun myth. Believe me. I know.


Yet, I can find no info on actual usage. I've read there are historical references to schools in New Orleans and their manuals, but none have survived.There's precious little remaining and no surviving historic examples of bowie manuals. The suggestion that there were bowie manuals authored in N.O. has been scrutinized heavily and no one has yet to find any actual mention of said manual(s) actually being published. Perhaps there were none. Perhaps some of the existing Maestro's in N.O. wrote but never published. Perhaps they wrote instruction sets or gift manuals specifically for their students. Historically the N.O. would likely have used modified French methods. IMS, most of the Maestros teaching in N.O. were from the French school of fence.

What we do know is that the Bowie became IMMENSELY popular, both as a gentleman's accessory, and as a working man's tool. It was so popular that the press started reporting ANY fixed bladed knife as a "bowie" whether or not we, today, would consider it so. Every knife fight with fixed blades was a "bowie knife fight." I guess some things never change.

I believe that in "Sentiments of the Sword" Burton said to use the Bowie the same way you use a sword.


YouTube is FULL of kata and all sorts of asian m.a. stuff. Where are the Bowie knife techniques?If youtube has a section for bowie techs, you should ignore it.


BTW, I have similar interest in small folders. Esp. those w/ pocket clips.FMA.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

It is interesting that no one studying Bowie is posting YouTube demonstrations.You'd want to avoid them anyway unless someone who knew what they were doing vetted the vid.

Same as with most other stuff on Youtube. There's a lot of really good stuff there and a lot of... ahem...


Bowie is said to be last evolution of edged weapon combat before firearms became the norm. I'd think some Wester M.A.'ers would be into it. As all sorts of other Western M.A.s are online.
Well of course there's a lot of WMA folks studying Bowie knife. But "a lot" is a relative term. WMA is the little sister in terms of popularity and general availability. Every street corner has a TKD studio and every neighborhood has a BJJ or MMA school now. But you have to look hard to find WMA clubs and, of those, only so many are going to be interested in 19th Century English/American Martial Arts.

FWIW, that's the primary emphasis of my club and the primary blade "art" there is the Bowie knife.

Where are you located at? Maybe I know someone nearby. (or maybe not)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

What do you think of James Keating's material?
I don't know if his new material is any different from his old, however I've seen his old Bowie vids and they're decent material. Lots of good stuff. He uses a fairly eclectic approach to technique and strategy, drawing from both western and asian traditions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

19th c. social morality might have played a part in the (apparent) lack of knife-fighting material committed to print. Other than "blade cultures" like Spain, that produced occasional detailed works on codified knife fencing/dueling methods, knife fighting was widely regarded as being illegal and morally obscene. Thus, perhaps, a book on that subject was less likely to be a sound investment for publishers.

IMO if any such material was produced in the USA during this period, it would most likely have been privately and even secretly printed.

Another avenue for you is may be to have a butcher at some Messer or barquemar/baselard video
A Messer is a very large knife from medieval Europe (called fashion in the uk).
Yeah, in the same way that a 26" Machete is "a very large knife."

A Messer is a sword. The word translates "knife" but in this case, it's a sword. If you took a messer and ground the spine down, removing the clip point, and made the whole spine into an edge, you'd call it an Arming Sword.


It shape is very Bowie like.There are some elements of Messer work which are applicable to the Bowie. But you want to be careful in attempting to apply it. Not everything transitions. Not by a longshot. But some does and it's good stuff.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk