Anyone have a favorite approach to this they feel like going into in detail?

Trying to guillotine someone who shoots in for the double really works best if their head posture is poor - i.e. they shoot in with their head down. If their head is upright, and you really want to go for a guillotine, you must break their posture. It's the same principle with applying subs from the ground - control them, break their posture, secure the submission, and execute it.

in this sequence, there is a sloppy, head-down attempt at shooting in, countered in a basic way:
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_combatives/basic_groundfighting_combative_techniques/front-guillotine-choke.shtml
http://www.armystudyguide.com/images2/20060704a-047.jpg
http://www.armystudyguide.com/images2/20060704a-048.jpg
http://www.armystudyguide.com/images2/20060704a-049.jpg

If their head is up, your sprawl and they are aware that you want the guillotine, it's very difficult to get anywhere with it.

When they shoot in, you have to stuff them down, preferably so that your chest is above the back of their head, and your weight is pressing them downwards. From there, the steps to finishing the guillotine are pretty straightforward.

Don't make the mistake of trying to just wrap your arm around their head as they shoot in on you. Sprawl, break them down, then secure the neck, then choke. If at any point you are missing one of these steps, you are giving them an additional opportunity to either escape your counterattack, or finish their shot. Remember that even if you secure their head, if they manage to take you down, and don't end up in your guard, your "guillotine" is little more than a mild inconvenience to them as they move to side control and then mount you.

edit: Just wanted to add the mechanics of the guillotine itself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHw_pgVuuCM

http://www.armystudyguide.com/images2/20060704a-048.jpg

Don't do this. This is wrong. Don't do this.

for a normal guillotine, I don't arch back. Arching back is the devil. Ok, so you've got your radial bone on his trachea, right? Don't let his head get away! Pinch your elbow to your body.

Ok, now he's secure, how do you finish? Lots of places say to arch back, but i say NAY. Nay, fine sir, as this always ends in defeat for me.

What do you do?

You "upper cut" yourself in the chin, while driving your shoulder/chest into his head. It makes it incredibly tight, and hard for him to do anything but tap.


As for your question, if they have any knowledge about what to do with their head, you're cooked. Anyway, This is what i do:

Sprawl, first, then take a hand and cup his chin. Cup it so teh bony part of your wrist is on his trachea/adam's apple.

Keep sprawling ,with yoru chest on the back of his head. You want him flat, ideally. Now, grab your hand, and kind of "upper cut" yourself in the chin, while driving your chest into his head.

Much appreciated. Anyone remember the name of that little Luta Livre fighter who was subbing everyone in Japan with the guillotine back in the day?

Does anyone recommend rolling into the mount? I've occasionally tried for it (grabbing the guillotine, putting in a butterfly hook, falling back and kicking over) and I've gotten the back but always lost hold of it in the moment. Is it possible to keep a hold of the choke during the roll?

Does anyone recommend rolling into the mount? I've occasionally tried for it (grabbing the guillotine, putting in a butterfly hook, falling back and kicking over) and I've gotten the back but always lost hold of it in the moment. Is it possible to keep a hold of the choke during the roll?

eh, i've gotten it a few times.

Its much easier to "bulldog" as we called it in wrestling.

you've got one arm around the neck, and an underhook. You're holding on to your elbow, kind of like you're doing a d'arce or brabo choke. You just flip them over and take mount. If you're smooth, the guillotine presents itself when you get to mount.

Does anyone recommend rolling into the mount? I've occasionally tried for it (grabbing the guillotine, putting in a butterfly hook, falling back and kicking over) and I've gotten the back but always lost hold of it in the moment. Is it possible to keep a hold of the choke during the roll?

In his Judo for Mixed Martial Arts book, Karo advocates this. he refers to it as a version of hikikomi gaeshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/hikikomigaeshi.htm). I've used it from time to time with a decent success rate.


Much appreciated. Anyone remember the name of that little Luta Livre fighter who was subbing everyone in Japan with the guillotine back in the day?

Not sure mate. you might have to be a bit more specific. What did he compete in? Shoot, pancrase, puroresu?

In his Judo for Mixed Martial Arts book, Karo advocates this. he refers to it as a version of hikikomi gaeshi (http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/hikikomigaeshi.htm). I've used it from time to time with a decent success rate.



Not sure mate. you might have to be a bit more specific. What did he compete in? Shoot, pancrase, puroresu?
Shooto. Got it: Alexandre "Pequeno" Nogueira. He was the #1 ranked guy at 145 for a long time. 7 of his 13 wins are by guillotine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMrB-qZQYi4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzy1ixpc_Co

Damn, I can't +rep Deadmeat because I'm still crushing on him.

War Wheel, Deadmeat nailed it. The guillotine is only readily available if they shoot in with bad posture, in other words, bent at the waist instead of the knees and with their head forward.

The guillotine counter is one of the reasons why I always hunch my neck into my shoulders when I shoot. It also reduces the efficacy of the crossface+sprawl counter, albeit only partially.

Favorite counter to double with good posture?

To be honest, there are too many variables to give a blanket response other than just saying "sprawl" here. attempt to sprawl. If they disengage, you've avoided the takedown, if you smother them and break their posture, you can guillotine, or whatever.

It partially depends on your base style too. I like to get a kimura grip and throw my opponent with a sweeping hip throw, whereas some guys at my club would never even want to try that in the same situation.

Favorite counter to double with good posture?

Only easy example I could find, its about a minute into the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLjYrSK0S24&NR=1

damn!!^ more embed fail! wtf?

It partially depends on your base style too.
This is for my kid. He's preparing for a fight in about 2 months against a kid with a wrestling background. His (my son's) sub background is minimal, although he recently started training SAMBO. He wrestles at school and does SanDa so the non sub aspect of his grappling is decent, and he has a good sprawl. Your advice is much appreciated, as I am not much of a grappler and he doesn't have a dedicated MMA coach to help him put the pieces together.

He also spars with these guys, to get used to people trying to sub him when strikes are in play (its kind of like Combat SAMBO)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5gT2T856EU

The kid he's fighting is wrestling + boxing and some subs. We're hoping he can sprawl and brawl, but I think he would rather have a sub response to the shoot than just try to scramble back up after a shoot, so feel free to hit us with teh grappling wizdom.

Only easy example I could find, its about a minute into the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLjYrSK0S24&NR=1
That's a pretty sweet counter. It's kind of hard to see how he transitions into the hip throw. Also, is it correct that this is a counter to the single-leg? That's what it looked like.

Thanks.

This is for my kid. He's preparing for a fight in about 2 months against a kid with a wrestling background. His (my son's) sub background is minimal, although he recently started training SAMBO. He wrestles at school and does SanDa so the non sub aspect of his grappling is decent, and he has a good sprawl. Your advice is much appreciated, as I am not much of a grappler and he doesn't have a dedicated MMA coach to help him put the pieces together.

He also spars with these guys, to get used to people trying to sub him when strikes are in play (its kind of like Combat SAMBO)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5gT2T856EU

The kid he's fighting is wrestling + boxing and some subs. We're hoping he can sprawl and brawl, but I think he would rather have a sub response to the shoot than just try to scramble back up after a shoot, so feel free to hit us with teh grappling wizdom.
Given those conditions, I'd recommend sprawl drills until he wants to go home. Additionally, supplement this by having someone competent shoot on him, followed by him sprawling with the intent to smash his partner's face into ground*, followed by a crisp spin to back.

Also, work pummeling to -insert favorite takedown from the clinch here- ad nauseum. Pick one or two subs to work once uke is down.

*Intent exaggerated to communicate the point.