Foreword: Ok, I've finished off with my first 2 weeks of Judo. So far, I've learned a lot of cool ****, but I'm still feeling a bit crappy/unsure about a few things. I figured that, for the next couple of months, I'll have an absolute flood of questions where it'd possibly irritate a lot of people if I poured out a new thread per question (I can't IM anyone any questions, so I'm at a loss at the moment).

Thus I hope to share what I've been taught as by typing it out I'll be able to process my thoughts and help commit certain ideas to memory. I have no intention of describing EVERY single part of the lesson, or which instructor took the session/how they taught. I will merely compile what I practiced and noticed throughout the lesson. It's purely about the techniques that have been introduced to me, and my griefs with some of them.

So as not to clutter the post, a 'summary' of my 2 weeks will be contained in Spoiler, and my questions/breakdown of my throws will remain uncovered.



Week 1: Monday Night... was introduced to De-ashi Harai, Seoi Nage and O-soto Gari. Also learnt some basic control methods of newaza, but since it was my first time rolling I just tried some practical things of my own.

Wednesday Night... we practiced a lot of hip-throw drills, which, upon further research, may have been O-Goshi and its variations. Also a small portion of kata related to this.

Week 2: Monday Night... Guest instructor took the hardest workout ever and just proceeded on the importance of closeness/drawing uke to us when we're on the ground. Obviously a lot more indepth, but no new official techniques as such. Still the best session I've had so far.

Wednesday Night... Tonight was rather pwn, my seoi nage is crap, Kouchi Gari is SORTA bad as I don't just shift my hip by my body in the direction I'm attempting to sweep in :( FORTUNATELY, I am improving on Seoi. My forward roll ukemi (I believe called Zenpo Kaiten Ukemi for this particular one) could do with some work... I'm not keeping my leading hand rigid enough. For some reason, my break falling deteriorated compared to the previous 3 sessions.

The highlight of Wednesday is that I've just found a really pwn throw that we 'combo'/feint/shift into in case the other is broken, and that's Seoi Nage/Ippon Seoi Nage (I'm not quite understanding which variation is which from what I've bene taught so far) to a sacrifice throw called Uchi Makikomi.

I have yet to land a throw in fully resistant randori, but I think this will be my first. Class was the emptiest it has ever been tonight, so any other noobs will fall before the might of this mighty takedown. So far, the only times I land anything in randori is if they're supposed to let us throw them if we have good entry/positioning or are like, 75% there, and that was not a true randori part of the certain session.

Self-assessment:

So far, the throws I am having the easiest time to the hardest pulling off in training/vs. some level of resistance:

1. Uchi Makikomi
2. O Soto Gari tied with O-Goshi.
3. Seoi Nage/Ippon Seoi Nage
4. Kouchi Gari (I've only trialed it briefly)
5. De-Ashi-Harai, but since I've only tried this slowly on the first night, and then taking it into randori afterwards, I may just be having a biased frustration.

List of how many throws I've landed in full randori/competition style situations: -NA-

De-Ashi-Harai comments: It took me awhile to realise that I don't sweep once one leg steps forward, rather, that it has to be AS it steps forward.

Seoi Nage: requires me to get really low, whilst keeping a straight back, which I am having trouble doing whilst catching my inner arm all the way into the armpit.

Questions:

1) Is it natural to have more trouble with a certain type of throw at first, eg. Hand technqiues may be easier than sweep/leg technqiues for some?

2) How can I practice different varieties of throws at home other than air-throwing? There must be SOME way? Kimura practiced on trees... so I'm sure there's a DIY setup I can have at home.

3) What's the etiquette behind using a technique someone of your level doesn't know? Say I were to self-teach myself Ura Nage, and perform it SAFELY in randori...

4) Finally, are there any tricks I can use to catch someone out in Randori at entry-level (Though most of my sparring is done vs. a green belt, and while I MAY have landed something in Randori, it may have been a 'gimme' of a throw, rather than something I genuinely landed, so I really want to get my first CLEAN throw in randori ASAP).

Just warn me if I need to don a flame shield etc. I genuinely thought Basic techniques would the right place for this thread... I'm sorry if this may seem like a waste of space of a thread, but I have nobody to turn to for help, so yeah... I'll take what is given.

It sounds cruel, but you suck too much right now for any advice to really be helpful.

You're trying to connect the dots to tie everything together, but you simply don't have enough dots to work with.

Anyways...
1: Of course... and i would argue at all stages of progression you're going to have certain preferences, albeit they can change.
2: There are some really good drills you can do up against a wall. Say you're facing a wall, step to the right with your right foot, step back with your left foot (so that you're facing left), then kick your right leg out behind you. return to facing the wall and do it in reverse... repeat.
3: Perfectly acceptable, but i would suggest in randori trying out things you have drilled before. Odds are at your level you're not going to be performing a whole lot that other students in the class haven't seen before.
4: Train, then train some more. (Sorry no magic answer)

So far, the throws I am having the easiest time to the hardest pulling off in training/vs. some level of resistance:

1. Uchi Makikomi
2. O Soto Gari tied with O-Goshi.
3. Seoi Nage/Ippon Seoi Nage
4. Kouchi Gari (I've only trialed it briefly)
5. De-Ashi-Harai, but since I've only tried this slowly on the first night, and then taking it into randori afterwards, I may just be having a biased frustration.

List of how many throws I've landed in full randori/competition style situations: -NA-

De-Ashi-Harai comments: It took me awhile to realise that I don't sweep once one leg steps forward, rather, that it has to be AS it steps forward.

Seoi Nage: requires me to get really low, whilst keeping a straight back, which I am having trouble doing whilst catching my inner arm all the way into the armpit.

These are good notes, but I really have no comment on them. Keep taking notes in whatever way helps you remember and ingrain the advice you get from your coach and senior students. Don't expect any near-solid throws for a little while--as in, until you've drilled that specific throw several times in several classes.



Questions:

1) Is it natural to have more trouble with a certain type of throw at first, eg. Hand technqiues may be easier than sweep/leg technqiues for some?
Yes. Don't worry about it; you're probably bad at everything right now.


2) How can I practice different varieties of throws at home other than air-throwing? There must be SOME way? Kimura practiced on trees... so I'm sure there's a DIY setup I can have at home.
Look at judoinfo.com and google for rubber band throw/kuzushi simulators. Basically you pull on them (and they give resistance) as you step for a specific throw.


3) What's the etiquette behind using a technique someone of your level doesn't know? Say I were to self-teach myself Ura Nage, and perform it SAFELY in randori...
No. Use and practice the techniques your instructor has shown you, and no others. This is a pet peeve of mine and many other instructors. Ura nage in particular is great...but many consider it unsafe for randori.

Which is more impressive to your instructor: you spazzing out and throwing a higher ranked student well, dangerously, and unexpectedly, OR you diligently working on the very high-percentage, rank-appropriate, safe throw he just showed you?


4) Finally, are there any tricks I can use to catch someone out in Randori at entry-level (Though most of my sparring is done vs. a green belt, and while I MAY have landed something in Randori, it may have been a 'gimme' of a throw, rather than something I genuinely landed, so I really want to get my first CLEAN throw in randori ASAP).
A lot of throws are entirely or partially "gimme" throws for the first few months. When you don't need it they'll stop giving it to you.

Don't look for tricks, just practice what you've been shown. If you're under a qualified instructor, you'll need nothing more for the first 6 months.

Right now you may be tempted to look for 'tricks' which will help you throw someone. Eventually you will have to realize that what you need is a solid foundation in Judo, which has to come from your instructors, not the internet.

Winning and losing is not the main point of Randori, which is kind of hard to understand until you have done a lot of randori and realized that individual victories in randori don't matter so much -- you won't even remember them a week later. It is really more a testing ground for your techniques rather than a contest. If you treat it as something to always be won, you may be reluctant to try new techniques you are not as good at, and you may stagnate.

And like I said in that other thread, when I was first starting out, my instructor told me

"If you focus on counters, your Judo will never grow."

So try to avoid that too, even if it means getting not getting a throw ...

My instructor has been hammering home the same point about throw combinations, Johnny5. So although they give me much pleasure and success, I recognize that he's right--combination throws are a crutch for me. I desperately WANT that crutch because I'm often the only yellow belt in a class of browns, but my development rests on practicing single attacks.

I've been slowly eliminating the ouchigari-kouchigari, harai-fake-to-osotogari trickery from my randori game, in favor of an unstoppable kouchigari entry, and repeated failure (each one progressively better, yet still failing) with seoinage.

My instructor has been hammering home the same point about throw combinations, Johnny5. So although they give me much pleasure and success, I recognize that he's right--combination throws are a crutch for me. I desperately WANT that crutch because I'm often the only yellow belt in a class of browns, but my development rests on practicing single attacks.

I've been slowly eliminating the ouchigari-kouchigari, harai-fake-to-osotogari trickery from my randori game, in favor of an unstoppable kouchigari entry, and repeated failure (each one progressively better, yet still failing) with seoinage.

I don't understand or agree with this. Competition judo is all about the ability to throw combination throws. That point is drilled into my head every time in randori when I block an initial attack only to find out it was a setup as I am looking up at the lights.

Uchi-Komis, moving drills, those are the times that you should perfect technique in individual techniques. Randori is about taking your favorite techniques and making them work against a resisting opponent. In fact my instructor tells me all the time I need to muscle less and work more set ups and combinations.

Just because you are trying to add new things to the arsenal does not mean you should abandon the old, especially when it is an integral (if advanced) part of judo. I should think that your instructor would be proud of a yellow being able to effectively throw combinations.


P.S. Try doing a fake osoto into harai, much more effective for me at least:jihad:

Winning and losing is not the main point of Randori, which is kind of hard to understand until you have done a lot of randori and realized that individual victories in randori don't matter so much -- you won't even remember them a week later. It is really more a testing ground for your techniques rather than a contest. If you treat it as something to always be won, you may be reluctant to try new techniques you are not as good at, and you may stagnate.This is extremely important to keep in mind. It's only my third week in judo, but I've got ten years of competing in fencing under my belt, so I've already sort of absorbed this mindset.

For instance, this past Monday, I went for o-soto gari a couple of times during randori. I got dropped on my ass every single time because I was leading with my foot, and my balance was still back instead of driving in. That said, it was a great class. Thanks to my partners pointing out the problems in my approach, now I know what NOT to do. And that's actually some really valuable knowledge to be armed with, even if it doesn't sound like much. Your sensei can tell you until he's blue in the face how to properly execute a throw, but at the end of the day, the best teacher is effing it up and realizing that yes, sensei was right after all.

Always remember- if you're not getting thrown a bunch of times a night, you're doing something wrong.

It sounds cruel, but you suck too much right now for any advice to really be helpful.

You're trying to connect the dots to tie everything together, but you simply don't have enough dots to work with.

(Sorry no magic answer)
Quoted for truth.

Honestly, in my first 6 months of Judo, I came close to packing it in loads of times. I had 10 years of Karate and 3 or 4 of Muay Thai under my belt by that stage and felt that I should be able to handle it.
But no, it's hard, physically and technically.

There really is no magic formula, other than practice.
Practice as much as you can, randori with as many different people as possible and ask questions of your coaches.


3) What's the etiquette behind using a technique someone of your level doesn't know? Say I were to self-teach myself Ura Nage, and perform it SAFELY in randori...

Please don't do this. I'm just back from class with a sick feeling in my stomach from watching someone's leg come a ball hair away from breaking thanks to yet another shittily performed Tani Otoshi.
If you want to learn a throw, ask your coach to show you.

Seoi Nage: requires me to get really low, whilst keeping a straight back, which I am having trouble doing whilst catching my inner arm all the way into the armpit.

Questions:

1) Is it natural to have more trouble with a certain type of throw at first, eg. Hand technqiues may be easier than sweep/leg technqiues for some?

3) What's the etiquette behind using a technique someone of your level doesn't know? Say I were to self-teach myself Ura Nage, and perform it SAFELY in randori...

4) Finally, are there any tricks I can use to catch someone out in Randori at entry-level (Though most of my sparring is done vs. a green belt, and while I MAY have landed something in Randori, it may have been a 'gimme' of a throw, rather than something I genuinely landed, so I really want to get my first CLEAN throw in randori ASAP)N00b answers, but here you are anyway:

Seoi nage: Is your issue with keeping your back straight and squatting down, or just with grabbing their arm as you go? Make sure you pull their arm forward, not down (i'm pretty sure i'm still pulling down through lack of proper practice, but i've been told to do this).

Try doing hindu squats to practice going down with a straight back. And my teacher recommends bunny hops for seoi nage in particular, because it gets the crouching position, with the upward and forward movement required for the throw.

1)Yes, most likely you will be bad at everything, the same way i pretty much still am. And even more specific than certain TYPES of techniques, some specific techniques may be harder or easier for you than others. (uchi mata easier than seoi nage but harder than ogoshi for example)

As time passes, you'll eventually learn the throws that work FOR YOU. Everyone will be different, or have tiny variations.

3) Don't do it, you probably learned it wrong anyway if you're just watching it at home. As already pointed out, randori is about practicing the techniques against a resisting opponent, not about beating them. If you want to try a new throw, ask your teacher, and they can decide if they want to teach you it yet or not.

The only time you should consider trying something new is in competition, if you happen to see an opening for it (and even then, maybe not, cause it's kind of dangerous).

4) You don't need tricks. Just keep up the practice and get better with time. These other people are better than you, it's unfortunate, and with time you might provide more of a challenge, but for now, just be happy with the gimme throws, and as someone else recommends, try combinations.

Well, I'd like to thank everyone for their answers. I think I just got a little carried away. You probably just have no idea how fun Judo is (I mean, you do, but...) after you've done 7 years of compliant sparring in _ing _hun. So I just thought I'd try to process as much information as humanly possible. However, it just seems like it's a matter of practice makes perfect, which is simple enough for me to understand :D.

Well, I'd like to thank everyone for their answers. I think I just got a little carried away. You probably just have no idea how fun Judo is (I mean, you do, but...) after you've done 7 years of compliant sparring in _ing _hun. So I just thought I'd try to process as much information as humanly possible. However, it just seems like it's a matter of practice makes perfect, which is simple enough for me to understand :D.It's alright, i've been doing it a few months now, and I still find it hard to get out of the mentality of your questions. I'm sure there are people doing it longer who are the same.

Well, I'd like to thank everyone for their answers. I think I just got a little carried away. You probably just have no idea how fun Judo is (I mean, you do, but...) after you've done 7 years of compliant sparring in _ing _hun. So I just thought I'd try to process as much information as humanly possible. However, it just seems like it's a matter of practice makes perfect, which is simple enough for me to understand :D.

Yeah, I understand.

Right now I'm really loving how I went from being not able to do seoinage against totally compliant partners...then I could...now I can do it in randori against black belts who are going really easy on me and giving openings...soon, the world!

2) How can I practice different varieties of throws at home other than air-throwing? There must be SOME way? Kimura practiced on trees... so I'm sure there's a DIY setup I can have at home.



This maybe blind leading the blind, but I find footwork for throws to be very helpful when on my own (Then again, I have absolutely no martial arts background and I am very uncoordinated)

YouTube - Ouchi Gari Drill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0_ND2xIho)

You can do that against a wall. Put your hands on the wall and do that footwork. Seoi nage and o goshi have similar footwork, but instead of reaping, you just lower your hips and turn away from the wall, trying to keep hand contact with the wall for as long as possible. Tai Otoshi uses similar footwork (well, depends on who you ask. The point is that a fair amount of te and koshi waza use a footwork close to that).

While your hearts in the right place as far as wanting to do as much practice as you can, I'd strongly advise against doing rubber band training at home right now. You are only new, and it will be very easy for you to cement alot of bad habits in your technique if you practice it outside of class with no one to correct you. Rubber band uchi komi is fantastic for developing speed and power moving into a throw, which is not what should be your focus right now. Your focus needs to be in the dojo, learning how to actually do the throw properly. If you want to do anything I'd recommend just getting as much exercise out of class as you can. Fitness will be very important as you progress.
It's all well and good that Kimura did osoto practice on a tree, but he didn't start doing that 2 weeks after commencing training.

I'm curious as to what exactly you're referring to with uchi makkikome? Surely you don't mean uchi mata makkikome? At your stage you shouldn't even know what a makkikome throw is, let alone be trying to use it in randori. Makkikome is something you leave for competition, or if you're at senior level and your partner doesn't mind in randori. You can and most probably will seriously hurt someone trying any sort of makkikome at your level.

Hope that helps :)

---------- Post added at 11:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------

Seems I can't edit my post. Disregard the above stuff I said about makkikome, the throw you were referring to is called ko uchi makkikome, for future reference, one of my favs :)

It's great to see the enthusiasm but don't over do things. Stick with practicing in class for now. Trying to do stuff by yourself outside of class is not going to help you and could hurt your development.

At this stage a big part of judo is training your muscle memory.You want to teach your body to move the right way. Once you do it a few thousand times it'll be really easy and you'll do throws without thinking about them. This is when you'll start to have success in randori and/or shiai.

My biggest advice to beginners is to stay loose when doing randori. You want to feel the way your partners move when attacking or defending and stiff arming like your life will end if you're thrown will prevent that. Get good at ukemi so you're not worried about getting hurt when you're thrown - it adds a ton to your judo and will make you more of a risk taker in randori. Most of all, have fun and enjoy it!

Yeah, well, I swear it sounded like ko uchi, but I checked Wikipedia (unfortunately, it's my go-to place at the moment :(), and the only maki-anything with uchi in it was plain old uchi. Plus, the movement was the same. The one I'm referring to is where you get low on one side and lock their leg with yours and apply all your weight in the direction of this leg (and thus not landing on their junk). In any case, yes Sensei showed it to us and we picked it up fairly well/there was no damage to either uke or tori.