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Judobum
3/08/2009 5:47am,
By request, looking at throws for taller, skinnier guys. Bear in mind this is not from my personal experience, being a short stocky guy, but more by observation and general principles.

Taller, skinnier players generally have a much different style than shorter guys. Having a higher center of gravity makes it more difficult to apply lower entry throws so they tend not to specialize in these. The advantages of a taller player is reach and leg length so it is optimal to work with these.

Some general tips for taller players. Use your reach, grip and hold your opponent away from you until you're ready to move in and attack. Don't do this defensively but rather control the gripping to keep him off you. Letting a shorter guy under you is a recipe for ippon. Many taller players like an overgrip but don't take it and rest or a shorter player will come under you. You need to be aggressive with an over-grip, take it and use it to move your opponent around.

Some throwing suggestions:

1) Ashi-waza. Taller guys tend to have longer legs so ashi-waza is a good choice. De-ashi-barai, tsae-tsuri-komi-ashi, ko-uchi and o-uchi are excellent throws for taller players. They're generally low risk and can be applied from farther out, keeping you out of the grasp of a shorter player.

2) Harai-goshi and uchi-mata. These are classic taller guy throws from an overgrip. You don't have to come in tight or get as low as with seoi or o-goshi. Uchi-mata you are targeting the high inner thigh to get maximum amplitude, just watch you don't nut your partner.

3) O-soto-gari. Very effective for taller players. A nice combo is o-soto to maki-komi. When you come in for the o-soto if he resists forwards you slide your lapel hand up and over the near shoulder of your opponent and grab his belt, then immediately plant with the reaping leg and turn in for maki-komi. One of my favorite combos that would work really well for a taller guy.

4) Seoi-nage. Wait a sec, I've been saying this is a hard throw for bigger guys! You have to adjust it to a higher level style. Instead of focusing on getting under your opponent, focus your kuzushi on pull him up high and loading him onto your hips. This will help to compensate for not getting as low when you bend down. The result is generally a higher amplitude throw and if you can get the feel for it is a deadly throw for a bigger guy. Translates well to seoi-o-toshi as well.


Those are my suggestions, taller players feel free to add some more!

Mtripp
3/08/2009 9:05am,
I think Tai Otoshi is a very good bet as well.

musicalmike235
3/08/2009 1:57pm,
By request, looking at throws for taller, skinnier guys. Bear in mind this is not from my personal experience, being a short stocky guy, but more by observation and general principles.

Taller, skinnier players generally have a much different style than shorter guys. Having a higher center of gravity makes it more difficult to apply lower entry throws so they tend not to specialize in these. The advantages of a taller player is reach and leg length so it is optimal to work with these.

Some general tips for taller players. Use your reach, grip and hold your opponent away from you until you're ready to move in and attack. Don't do this defensively but rather control the gripping to keep him off you. Letting a shorter guy under you is a recipe for ippon. Many taller players like an overgrip but don't take it and rest or a shorter player will come under you. You need to be aggressive with an over-grip, take it and use it to move your opponent around.

Some throwing suggestions:

1) Ashi-waza. Taller guys tend to have longer legs so ashi-waza is a good choice. De-ashi-barai, tsae-tsuri-komi-ashi, ko-uchi and o-uchi are excellent throws for taller players. They're generally low risk and can be applied from farther out, keeping you out of the grasp of a shorter player.

2) Harai-goshi and uchi-mata. These are classic taller guy throws from an overgrip. You don't have to come in tight or get as low as with seoi or o-goshi. Uchi-mata you are targeting the high inner thigh to get maximum amplitude, just watch you don't nut your partner.

3) O-soto-gari. Very effective for taller players. A nice combo is o-soto to maki-komi. When you come in for the o-soto if he resists forwards you slide your lapel hand up and over the near shoulder of your opponent and grab his belt, then immediately plant with the reaping leg and turn in for maki-komi. One of my favorite combos that would work really well for a taller guy.

4) Seoi-nage. Wait a sec, I've been saying this is a hard throw for bigger guys! You have to adjust it to a higher level style. Instead of focusing on getting under your opponent, focus your kuzushi on pull him up high and loading him onto your hips. This will help to compensate for not getting as low when you bend down. The result is generally a higher amplitude throw and if you can get the feel for it is a deadly throw for a bigger guy. Translates well to seoi-o-toshi as well.


Those are my suggestions, taller players feel free to add some more!

Being a taller skinnier guy who is taking judo, I figured I would throw my two cents in. Far be it from me to question two people who know much more than I do about judo, but I have had zero luck with any of the throws listed above.

With the possible exception of uchi-gari, I can't get leg sweeps/trips to work for me. When I try, I find that my high center of gravity makes it hard to keep my balance. Osoto-gari is a strange beast all together. I'd think it would be easy for me, but generally I just can't get the throw to work.

Seoi-nage throws are difficult for me for all the reasons that you mentioned in your post, however I have found that in general, the drop variation of Seoi-nage works better for me.

In general, I have had the best luck with:

Koshi Guruma (This throw is my bread and butter)
Morote Gari (Experience in wrestling definitely helps with this throw)
O Goshi (Rarely get to use it)
Seoi Otoshi (One of my favorites)
Uchi Gari (Rarely get to use it)
Uki Goshi (Rarely get to use it)
Ura Nage (My instructor hates when I use this one)

Another thing I have noticed is when I am doing an entry that involves off-balancing someone by pulling them up and over me as shown in the picture bellow, the movements seem awkward to me and I don't feel like I have enough control over the person while doing it.


http://wellness.lattc.edu/sseck/mht2sm.jpg

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the purpose of this maneuver but it seems like the idea is to bring the guy to me when I feel that it would be easier to go to him. Perhaps Mark Tripp or someone else could shed some light on why I am having these problems. Any help would be appreciated.

Mtripp
3/08/2009 2:02pm,
Well, I tend to take a Russian view of these things. I would guess the problem is in your grips.

Take O soto as an example. If you are small, you want to push up with your power hand. But if you are tall you want to reach over their shoulder (smashing as you do) to force them back and down.

No clue how to post this, but look here...

YouTube - JUDO le perfectionnement des ashi waza o soto gari (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miPYam0F6yI)

and of course here:

YouTube - Yamashita's combination o uchi gari/o soto gari (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPmk5fmCHgg&feature=related)

Mtripp
3/08/2009 2:13pm,
This is just great to watch...

YouTube - 16 days of glory - Yasuhiro Yamashita (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AajY3HA0RtU&NR=1)

Burb
3/08/2009 2:22pm,
Thanks for the informative post. I'm very tall and quite skinny. I had my first judo session yesterday and I've been doing BJJ for a year. I was considering asking for thoughts on throws for lanky guys in the basic section since I have little luck with some of the throws that require me to get very low. I'll research the suggested techniques.

Sophist
3/08/2009 2:46pm,
I'm 6'5" and skinny. The throws listed so far are pretty much the ones that I've had some success with (except seoi-otoshi). Ashi-waza and o-soto have been big and useful for me for quite a while. Harai, uchimata, tai-otoshi, sasae, o-uchi have all put in semi-regular appearances, but I've only recently been managing to put in the commitment I need to make the turning-in throws work more reliably.

To add a couple more I've found useful:
Sumi-gaeshi - frequently, if I get that big high grip and don't attack off it rapidly, short people who're not good enough to just counter me to hell and back stick their arse out and drop their weight and try to fend me off. Their feet are hard to reach at that point with my ashiwaza, I don't always have the oomph to lift them and straighten them out, and fitting under them for something hip-throw-based just isn't terribly practical. The solution that's worked best for me is to grab the belt or take a deep overhook and dive underneath for sumi-gaeshi.
Tani-otoshi - I've just found this an easier counter to hip throws, for me, than ura-nage. It seems easier to get lower this way.

100xobm
3/08/2009 6:43pm,
6ft 3 and about 80kgs at the time of this post. Left handed player. I'll describe the techniques I use just as an exemplar for a tall, skinny, lefty.

Tai Otoshi is my bread and butter, especially with a good overgrip. long legs plus flexibility mean you can get right down and send them over. Furthermore, long legsare great for ashi waza setups.

O Uchi gari is an incredibly versatile setup, which I lead into Tai Otoshi mostly, or O soto gari depending on uke's motion

Makikomi's go down well, and can be a great substitute for sloppy technique (which mine is). This is great for short players stiff arming you and keeping their legs out of reach (got this from superjudotv), tug down on the stiff arm until it is collapsed and weak, follow up with a rapid step through and wrap around throw:
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/haraimakikomi.gifhttp://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/osotomakikomi.htm
Harai Makikomi, works remarkably well in my BJJ club as well, but leaves the back exposed.

Lastly, a giant BB showed me his personal superthrow, being Sasae. Which I'm working on now.

feint going in for a hip throw, which will usually result in someone motioning towards a jigotai defense, the feint just needs to be a shifting of your hips so they can sense your intentions, then switch to the sasae (or Hiza guruma I guess) and it works beautifully. I can't do it properly, but he does this throw like pure judo, and can catch people much better than you. I tagged a brown belt with it.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/sasaetsu.gif

Also, seconded on the Tani Otoshi. When I first started it seemed just a natural counter, I wasn't taught it until my coach already saw me countering with it. I've stuck with it and use it with great success.

Rancid Pantaloons
3/09/2009 10:45am,
First of all: thx for this thread

I am about 6 ft tall and definitely skinny. Should I chose similar techniques as above?

Kintanon
3/09/2009 10:59am,
Will there be a thread for neither tall and skinny nor short and stocky people? I'm 5'7" and 140lbs, does that mean both threads will work for me or Judo is forever out of my reach?

Rancid Pantaloons
3/09/2009 11:27am,
I didn't mean to troll. I am fairly new to judo and I am pretty clueless.

Coach Josh
3/09/2009 11:57am,
Developing "your" Judo is the best part of learning Judo. Experimenting with throws and working on them to suit your style of play is where all the fun is in Judo.

Becoming a cookie cutter of your coach is not the best way to approach Judo. Emulating others fine in the beginning but constant correction and development should be your ultimate goal.

Just don't get into the trap that you are making stuff up and developing "new" stuff. Many people have played Judo before you and have utilized some trick or variant of a throw that made them successful. This alteration was just not accepted because of its application was for a small group of people ie left handed long legged guys with a slight limp and green hair. The variation worked extremely well for him and others that were the same but not for others. The techniques that have lasted or have been accepted as proper Judo are the ones that work for the majority a majority of the time.

Now all the throws stated in thread are great throws for the taller players. The other thing that should be stressed is your grip. As a taller player you will have the advantage of reach as well as the disadvantage of closing the gap to throw. Reaching over for the high collar or back grip is the norm for taller players. The tendency to stiff arm is high with y'all also. Learn to keep the power arm bent and the elbow down and into uke's chest. Your arm should be like a shock absorber and have some movement or suppleness in the arm. After that you footwork needs to be so you are making full entries and not staying on the outside when doing turning throws

musicalmike235
3/09/2009 12:26pm,
. . . The tendency to stiff arm is high with y'all also. Learn to keep the power arm bent and the elbow down and into uke's chest. Your arm should be like a shock absorber and have some movement or suppleness in the arm . . .

In my experience, its shorter guys that try to stiff arm me. I will try and get my grips, and my opponent will grab both my lapels and WON'T LET GO. They will just sit there, arms fully extended and just stall. I hate it when guys do that.

Then there is the whole thing where people don't know the difference between Randori and Shia. I am trying to work a technique, and my sparring partner is treating it like a death match where he is defending his family's honor.

But I digress. My point is, the ones who end up stiff-arming me, are generally the shorter guys.

Ryno
3/09/2009 12:49pm,
Yep, for tall guys, you've just got to use those long legs. Reaping throws such as Osoto, Uchimata, etc. just make too much sense. Ditto for ashiwaza. Long leg reach and big feet help make for good sweeping.

Coach Josh
3/09/2009 2:10pm,
In my experience, its shorter guys that try to stiff arm me. I will try and get my grips, and my opponent will grab both my lapels and WON'T LET GO. They will just sit there, arms fully extended and just stall. I hate it when guys do that.

Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi

theotherserge
3/09/2009 2:16pm,
Developing "your" Judo is the best part of learning Judo. Experimenting with throws and working on them to suit your style of play is where all the fun is in Judo.

Becoming a cookie cutter of your coach is not the best way to approach Judo. Emulating others fine in the beginning but constant correction and development should be your ultimate goal.

^absolutely true. I've been working O-Guruma then into Ashi-waza if the O-Guruma failz. We've also trained it off a roundhouse-kick&into O-guruma switch. Totally fun!

I'll just try to throw as many variants at my students/myself as I can, while trying to figure out what works for me or my guys.


Just don't get into the trap that you are making stuff up and developing "new" stuff. Many people have played Judo before you and have utilized some trick or variant of a throw that made them successful.
*JAMES EARL JONES VOICE*
"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is noting new under the sun."