After watching lots of old kung-fu movies and seeing some documentary stuff on ancient martial arts (mostly Chinese martial arts) I was wondering if the old ways of building strength and endurance, like carrying pails of water up lots of stairs, or sitting in a low-horse stance with weights or something, are completely defunct.

Does a martial artist benefit the same from lifting weights and keeping with modern exersizes with modern technology as he does from keeping in the tradition of ancient training? Is there a reason the old way is the old way? I personally don't think that if you went back in time and picked the most fit, skilled martial artist from ancient civilizations and stacked him up against the most fit, equally skilled martial artist of today, you would likely see any differences.

Help me!!


Also, I'm super newbie. Forgive me if this has been covered at length.

...

>: (

Oh for the love of.....


20 minutes of horse stance does nothing but make horse stance more bearable. Why learn horse stance? So you can perform some crappy chinese forms, not fight. If you want to work out your quads then do squats.


Carrying pails of water up and down stairs works the same way as lifting and carrying sandbags and/or hitting a tire with a sledgehammer. It teaches muscles to work together for a certain goal while exercising (incredibly layman explanation as far as I know it). Lifting weights just targets very specific groups.

There's your answer noob. For any other newbie questions stick it in newbietown you noob of a noob.

The training from 'Incincible Shaolin' maybe. That involved such awesomeness as: Weighted fingertip Hindu pushups, resistance-band walks, frontal barbell holds (with the fingers, no less) and featured at least one keystone (used as a weapon for extra awesome).

Seriously though it'd come down to the practice. Isometric pose holds to build 'strength' or 'force' aren't worth your time. Squats (esp. weighted ones, even if it's just weighted with a human body), pushups and those kinds of movements (which occasionally feature in 'traditional martial arts training') are worth doing. The rest? Not so much. Keystone swinging would be pretty effective and highly traditional, too, but no-one outside of Shuai Jiao seems to know what that is.

wanna get strong - lift heavy stuff.

i don't think muscles care what the heavy stuff is.

the "old way" (which may not be as old as you think) evolved because people had pails, water, poles and stairs but did not have free weights/weight machines

After watching lots of old kung-fu movies and seeing some documentary stuff on ancient martial arts (mostly Chinese martial arts) I was wondering if the old ways of building strength and endurance, like carrying pails of water up lots of stairs, or sitting in a low-horse stance with weights or something, are completely defunct.

Does a martial artist benefit the same from lifting weights and keeping with modern exersizes with modern technology as he does from keeping in the tradition of ancient training? Is there a reason the old way is the old way? I personally don't think that if you went back in time and picked the most fit, skilled martial artist from ancient civilizations and stacked him up against the most fit, equally skilled martial artist of today, you would likely see any differences.

Help me!!


Also, I'm super newbie. Forgive me if this has been covered at length.

Dude, think.


Also, read the goddam stickies!!!! :viking:

This isn't a thread, it's a poll.

"Check one: ... Science [ ]
....................... "Tradition" that the original guy would've discarded if he was around today [ ]"

TeM move this to the CMA forum please.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/alloway/2371427FrankGrimes.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/alloway/kimurabenchpress.jpg

Dude, this is the book for you - "Shaolin Fitness Secrets"

http://kungfufightingtips.com/products/shoalinFitnessSecrets.php

I am thoroughly ashamed to say that I actually brought a copy of this off t3h internetz, although I ocassionally do some of the exercises, especially at home where I don't have much equipment.

I particularly enjoy "Dragon descends mountain", which is basically climbing down the stairs on your hands while dragging your feet, and "Monkey rapes tortoise" or whatever they call doing a squat while swinging a heavy stone.

Blowing out candles, however, was just boring, and pulling nails out of wood merely a simulation of an extremely frustrating, skin-scuffing, splinter-getting home-improvement project.

YouTube - Beijing 2008 Martial Arts Training Camp: SHUAI JIAO SPECIAL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEjkMbLyAzw)

This is the often-trotted-out video of Shuai Jiao fighters and their training methods. See 4:20 for a pretty damn inventive barbell movement, and there's some keystone work (swinging, weighted punches, etc) interspersed throughout, and a pretty nifty looking pinch grip move with what looks like a paving stone. THIS kind of 'traditional' training works. It could very easily be replicated through more modern equipment and may even be improved with modern equipment. Perhaps even the methods have analogues to movements well known to better physical culturists than I. There's another video floating around of a Shuai Jiao team weight-lifting (very odd movements to the uninformed) floating around somewhere...

I recently left my kung fu school, but shortly before that I was given quite the verbal lashing for questioning their stupid traditional training methods. I'm a kinesiology student, and to see martial artists, who should at least be recreational athletes, completely disregard everything modern science has contributed to exercise theory infuriates me like only ingorant martial artists can.

STANCE TRAINING
- Useless nonsense
- Will only make you better at holding stances
- Will only improve enduarance significantly in the joint position practiced in
- Will not even improve isometric strength if you can hold it for longer than a few seconds
- Will not make you kick stronger, jump higher, etc, since you are not practicing a dynamic movement
- Is hardly even relevant to performing CMA forms, since those invovle moving


And as far as that comment about a martial artist of yesteryear and a martial artist of today showing similar levels of fitness, dear dear me....

The masters of years past did what they did because they thought it was the best way. Today, we have proven through the magical wonders of science that most of these methods are, as you put it, defunct, and often sometimes even detrimental to training.

And yet, so many traditional instructors and students cling to their traditional exercises and refuse to hear anything to the contrary. They do not care that they could improve faster, perform better, and avoid certain injuries by adopting modern methods. God, no. Not if it means giving up traditions!

The response I always like to give when people say "Well, this is the way it has always been done, so it must be right!" is this: paint was made with lead, doctors didn't sterilize their instruments, and tapeworms were marketted for weight-loss solutions. Humans don't always get it right the first time.

Attaching to tradition just because it is old never makes sense. But as socratic said, some old things do work.

TeM move this to the CMA forum please.


Voila!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEjkMbLyAzw

This is the often-trotted-out video of Shuai Jiao fighters and their training methods. See 4:20 for a pretty damn inventive barbell movement, and there's some keystone work (swinging, weighted punches, etc) interspersed throughout, and a pretty nifty looking pinch grip move with what looks like a paving stone. THIS kind of 'traditional' training works. It could very easily be replicated through more modern equipment and may even be improved with modern equipment. Perhaps even the methods have analogues to movements well known to better physical culturists than I. There's another video floating around of a Shuai Jiao team weight-lifting (very odd movements to the uninformed) floating around somewhere...

Barbell Osotogari at 7:15! Awesome.

When did the Chinese incorporate kettlebell training into their conditioning menu?

If you go look at old manuals in Chinese it has been around for at least a few centuries. The problem is most people don't look at modernization they think antique is better. You then never hear about the "good training" that CMA has/had.