Hello!

I train BJJ and judo at two schools that share the same mat, so quite a few people do what I do and go back and forth between the judo and BJJ on alternating days. We have both a local BJJ and a local judo tournament coming up, and I was watching a mostly BJJ guy do randori in the judo class against an all-judo guy the other night, with one of the judo instructors acting as judo ref. The BJJ guy kept pulling guard from stand-up, pulling the other guy on top of him and going to matwork. This would lead nowhere within 3 seconds, and they'd get stood back up, as per judo rules.

My question is this: when the guy pulled guard, he landed on his back with a very solid "thump" with the other guy on top. Wouldn't some judo refs call that an ippon, awarded to the guy on top? It seems to me that a good ref would do it sometimes, depending on the actions of the top guy and whether he initiates an attack. Or would the guy pulling guard possibly get a shido against him?

Any responses from experienced judo refs would be appreciated. I partly ask because I think pulling guard from stand-up is a pretty silly thing to do all around. Even if it's not an ippon against you, the chances of getting anything judo-legal within that 3 second window are so low that it's a dumb strategy under judo rules.

You'll get called ippon by good refs (if the guy in guard makes any throw attempt), and bad (if the guy being pulled into guard just stands there).

You'll get shido'd for sure for unskillful entry to newaza (must be a throw or continuous attack).

Guard-pulling is so dumb in judo tournaments it makes my eyes bleed. Judo is judo, playing BJJ in a judo match will fail. Ask Hedgehogey.

If you pulled guard and on the way down set up an arm bar or triangle (without fully putting it on until you were on the mat) that would be continuous attack. Just remember you can't lock on a submission and take the opponent to the mat with it, but you can set one up on the way down.

Does the ref call Ippon for the other guy when you use tomoe nagi?

good question and good answers. as far as pulling a guard and setting up an armbar before you hit the ground and continuing the sub once you get to the mat, how would that be different from a flying armbar? would it be a more controlled fall, more like a "floating" arm bar?

Does the ref call Ippon for the other guy when you use tomoe nagi?
Seriously? Tomoe nage is a sacrifice throw which ends with the other person falling on their back (or in tori's failure). Pulling guard is not a throw. Pulling guard is putting yourself on your back and your opponent between your legs.

And yes, people get ippons called on them for poor tomoenages, infrequently.

As for pulling guard while you set up an armbar...this mystical technique sounds like a flying armbar and nothing more.

Does the ref call Ippon for the other guy when you use tomoe nagi?No, of course not.

A half assed tomoe nage blatently used just so you can enter groundwork will be penalised though.

As for pulling guard. Given that the primary aim of Judo is to throw your opponent onto his back... does jumping onto your own back sound like a winning strategy to you?


The contestant shall be able to change from standing position to ne waza (groundwork) in the following cases, but should the employment of the technique not be continuous, the referee orders both contestants to resume the standing position.

* (a) When a contestant, after obtaining some result by a throwing technique changes without interruption into ne waza (groundwork) and takes the offensive.
* (b) When one of the contestants falls to the ground, following the unsuccessful application of a throwing technique, the other may take advantage of his opponent's unbalanced position to take him to the ground.
* (c) When one contestant obtains some considerable effect by applying a shime waza (strangle) or kansetsu waza (a lock) in the standing position and then changes without interruption to ne waza (groundwork).
* (d) When one contestant takes his opponent down into ne waza (groundwork) by the particularly skillful application of a movement which although resembling a throwing technique does not fully qualify as such.
* (e) In any other case where one contestant may fall down or be about to fall down, not covered by the proceeding sub sections of this article, the other contestant may take advantage of his opponent's position to go into ne waza (groundwork).

As for pulling guard while you set up an armbar...this mystical technique sounds like a flying armbar and nothing more.

You can either high jump into it and make it a flying armbar or fake/fail tomoe nage and set it up low that way. But yeah, nothing mystical about it... Unless you are wearing ninja pajamas while doing it.

The failed tomoe-nage to belly-down jujigatame is actually pretty awesome, yeah.

Once in a tourney I pulled guard after I fucked up a yoko tomoe nage and discovered that I landed in the textbook gogoplata position. Feeling a little cocky I decided to go for it. Ref called "Mate" before I could sink it in.

My BJJ coach (watching): Hysterical laughter

My Judo coach (watching): Classic "WTF are you doing!?!?" expression.

Well, anyway, I would submit that it's not a good idea to spend too much time on your back in a competition where you can lose by pinfall.

You can either high jump into it and make it a flying armbar or fake/fail tomoe nage and set it up low that way. But yeah, nothing mystical about it... Unless you are wearing ninja pajamas while doing it.

how risky is that move? could you wind up getting ippon against you if you fail, or possibly lose the match? does the risk factor increase if you are wearing ninja jammies instead of a proper gi?

how risky is that move? could you wind up getting ippon against you if you fail, or possibly lose the match? does the risk factor increase if you are wearing ninja jammies instead of a proper gi?
Well, like any Judo technique the percentage of success goes up the more you practice it. I have fooled around with flying armbars on occasion but have yet to pull one off in randori, so I wouldn't try one in competition yet. But some guys have pretty good success with it.

This is the best video on flying armbars I've found:
YouTube - Shinya Aoki - Flying Armbar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJmbo9gPHjo)

And here's a good tomoe nage to armbar:

YouTube - Tomoe Nage to Juji Gatame (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N45DeWh2XEA)

Seriously? Tomoe nage is a sacrifice throw which ends with the other person falling on their back (or in tori's failure). Pulling guard is not a throw. Pulling guard is putting yourself on your back and your opponent between your legs.

And yes, people get ippons called on them for poor tomoenages, infrequently.

As for pulling guard while you set up an armbar...this mystical technique sounds like a flying armbar and nothing more.

I think people are talking about this (4:16)

YouTube - UFC 2 Martial Arts Feature (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQAQnVAB0Q)

Now do you see the relationship between half-assed Tomoe nage and armbaring in Judo? Not a flying armbar at all.

In my first judo tournament, I went for a tomoe nage, as I was really out of ideas as to how to get past my opponent's guard. It wasn't a very good tomoe nage, as my kazushi was sad. I got a shido for deliberately going to ne waza without an attempt to throw. There was an attempt, I just didn't do it very well. Of course, that was the same match in which I got a nice soto makikomi and landed in kesa gatame. I was then penalized for my gi top having fallen open in the effort and it covering my opponent's face. One could argue that that particular referee was a difficult sell.

In the same tournament, one of my opponents screwed up, and his kazushi pulled my weight right on top of him. The problem was, he wasn't set up for any kind of throw. I stuck my leg out in an attempt to get something, anything as he tumbled onto his back. I won that match with ippon for ouchi gari. Newbie-fu for the win.

I will agree with the first response to the original question- butt or back flopping is a good way to get ippon scored on you if your opponent makes any effort to throw you.

I think people are talking about this (4:16)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQAQnVAB0Q

Now do you see the relationship between half-assed Tomoe nage and armbaring in Judo? Not a flying armbar at all.
You're a punk. Have you ever done tomoenage? Have you ever done a jujigatame? Have you ever pulled guard?