One can say the Kyokushinkai is the exception that proves the rule and that most karate styles are not being taught in a way that produces effective fighters.

However, one should also be aware that Kyokushinkai has several styles that have spun off from it and are very effective: Seido Karate, Shidokan, Shodokaikan.

As for Kyokushinkai not adapting: K-1 was created by the practitioners of Shodokaikan. While is was not KK proper, it K-1 indirectly has its origins in Kyokushinkai.

As for grappling: I can't grapple so I'll just STFU.

As many have stated before "Karate" is too broad a term. It's like saying "wrestling." There are different types of wrestling like freestyle, Roman-Greco, catch as catch can, and ofcourse professional wrestling.

Each school is different with a different focus. I'm not sure about the more traditional schools of Karate, but I think Seidokan and Kyokushin Karate are completely different. While we still learn kata at my school (Seidokan), we also spend most of our time hitting the heavy bag or mitts. There is also a lot of time dedicated to sparring. While not as intense as Muay Thai, some schools of Karate still offer some benefits.

Ippatsu182:

Where do you train?

Nevermind: Just saw your location.

January 3rd and still hungover.

I guess one point I was making was the K-1, which started out as Seidokan, is an example of innovation in Karate.

I think that was the point.

the reason kyokushin wont adapt and allow headshots is because that would require gloves and Mas Oyama said, if I am not mistaken, that when kyokushin uses gloves, people will think "well, why not shin guards" and than "well we could use those protections on the head also". Well, thats what I read, Oyama´s opinion was that fights in Kyokushin should be bare handed with no protection.

And btw, top kyokushin fighters (except that Kyama guy, I am not sure about that result) IMO would be able to take on the top Muay Thai fighters, IMO.

Ohh please stop this. Edge I came here to discuss this charged topic in an adult like manner. You see this forum as an avenue to trade insults. Judging by your picture if that really is you I can safely say your an asshole.

Anyways where were we ohh yes the immortal Kyokushinkai.Ha.Look I've got nothing against Kyokushin...really except in my opinion its a stand up striking art and if you want a stand up striking art...do Muay Thai its just that simple. With Muay Thai its so much more straight to the point from day one. How you train is how you fight with no useless baggage attatched. None of that upper/lower forarm blocks,no deep rigid postures,do reverse punches or any useless kata crap of that kind.I've seen good Kyokushin guys fight..its just kickboxing with the use of sidekicks.

You want to know why Andy Hug cross trained in boxing?Its the same reason a Kyokushin brown belt told me "because fighting has evolved". The tradional way of using the reverse punch with your fists chambered is rubbish and anyone who has a half decent impresive fountain of knowledge in the martial arts will tell you that that stuff dosen't work anymore.

Then theres the practicality view point. Why spend money on uniforms and gradings as one normally has to do at Kyokushin schools. With the ring side sports like Muay Thai in the gyms I've seen there not interested in selling uniforms,tee shirts,belts or martial arts drink bottles. You rock up to class and train. And if you want to know if your making progress in what your studying..you test your skills out in the ring.Never any argument there.So Muay Thai eliminates that cocksucking money derived outdated practice of charging/paying for grades.

Karate CAN work but Kickboxing/Muay Thai WORKS and works very well.

I say both work.

Reverse punches do work and fucking nicely if executed properly (other hand guarding and probing then a reverse punch is used when theres a opening).

I see Muay Thai as a great no bullshit ring side fighting sport. Personally, everyone has valid points. Lets all just chill and see this.

I have a video of Andy Hug knocking a guy out with a reverse punch.

Edge shut the **** up !!
You ignorant asswipe you keep missing the point !!

I didn't say Muay Thai was free. Of coarse you need to pay for your training.WHat I like about their thinking is grades arn't given out at a price tag unlike many karate dojos.

I'd love for someone to tell Seiyu Oyata and his senior students that karate doesn't work...

For them it certainly does.

Will karate work for Little Billy Snotnose against the bully two grades above him? Probably not.

Hannibal you must be fucking joking everyone is with Edge on this one. YOU ARE THE USELESS **** not Edge.

muay thai is very exepnsive here.... 10 pound for one lesson of one hour
and if your a begginer its 20 pounds ....... (30 dollars)

I'd love for someone to tell Seiyu Oyata and his senior students that karate doesn't work...


After months of watching and training with one of Oyata's top students, I wondered out loud whether a particular strike would be effective in a street fight. That was about a month ago and.... yep, I can still feel the bruise. I will never forget the sickening feeling of my leg going numb right before it charley-horsed into uselessness.

After months of watching and training with one of Oyata's top students, I wondered out loud whether a particular strike would be effective in a street fight. That was about a month ago and.... yep, I can still feel the bruise. I will never forget the sickening feeling of my leg going numb right before it charley-horsed into uselessness.


Honestly, that type of stuff doesn't impress me. I've been on the receiving end of lots of tuite and kyushojutsu techniques before. They hurt like hell, no question about it. But, I've never seen a pratitioner that can prove they're useful in a live situation. For the most part, what they amount to is painful parlor tricks.

Anyway, back to the point. It's ALWAYS a mistake to make a statement so broad as "X style doesn't work". Every style has flaws. Some more than others. Tae Kwon Do gets a lot of ****, for example. I personally wouldn't train TKD. I've trained with some good TKD guys, and they have holes in their game, of course. But when they kick you in your face, it still hurts. It still works.

Karate, like it's been pointed out, means a lot of different things. And when a Karate practitioner hits you in the face, you can still bleed. It works. Does that justify all the kata and bullshit stances in karate? No. But there is still valuable stuff you can take away from it.

I'm a reformed karateka, and I wouldn't go back to it, because there is better training to be found, in my opinion. But I walked away with some valuable things. I learned how to hit hard, for one. I learned how to be aggressive as a striker. Those things are valuable, and they're sorely lacking in lots of n00bs that won't even consider the possibility that a traditional art may have a smidgeon of value.

The single thing that defines whether or not any style will work is its training methodology.

Disagree - training methodology is certainly the most or second most IMPORTANT facotr, but not the only one. As has been said elsewhere, yellow bamboo will not work no matter how you train it because the principles on which it is founded are not fully grounded in reality. Likewise other arts which are not as far along on the scale may be more or less apt to succeed based entirely on their basic techniques et cetera, or so it seems to me. Thus, it's not prudent to assume that any art will work well as long as it has the proper training methodolgy - some arts include superflous techniques, or contain basic techniques with inefficiencies built in (chambered punches, kicks that come from the knee, etc.)