I've got a blunt question. Reading the CMA-forum here I noticed lineage seems to be highly important, when it come to discuss someones abilities in CMA. It can be read in every book related to CMA, nearly every instructor, teacher, master....[IRONY_on] refers proudly to his/her exeptional teachers and their exeptional teacher's mystic teachers and so on... [IRONY_off]

Now for a bad instructor won't get better, if his/her teacher was exeptional, what is so damn important about having lineage? Is it important? If it is, what for? It might be a hint for qualification, but it's certainly not a proof.

Just to avoid misinterpretation: I do not hold any lineage, not even one not worth speaking of, just nothing. I am fine with that, it just bothers me sometimes, when people, expecially chi-focused taijiquan-practitioneers, claim that **** like it makes them a better person or martial artist, what I constantly dare to doubt.

How do you have *no* lineage, and yet have "Taijiquan" in your style field? Are you a school-hopper?

I'd say it's important, in terms of selling instruction...and always was. It's a similar situation in painting, and music.

"My teacher studied in Ruebens' workshop, hence I have teh r33l skillz".

"my drum teacher played with John Lee Hooker, and Buddy Guy/Junior Wells, hence I have teh r33l blues chops"

or more likely.

"My producer worked with Celine Dion, so you know my album rocked"

Name dropping is as old as names. It's reassurance for the consumer, giving them the sense that they are buying into the inside track, of knowledge/skill.

It's supposed to fill in the blank or "what circles do you run in?"...that said, it doesn't mean much...because every man/woman has the ability to suck, regardless of lineage.

Lineage isn't that important. Lying about lineage is a big problem.

For example: Just because you had a seminar with Ren Guang-yi doesn't mean you're qualified to teach Taiji.

Lineage isn't that important. Lying about lineage is a big problem.

For example: Just because you had a seminar with Ren Guang-yi doesn't mean you're qualified to teach Taiji.

exactly (I assume Ren Guang-yi, is a taiji heavyweight). I know some premier musicians, but it doesn't mean I'm one...or that I can even play (though I can).

The School I trained at (Chinese Kickboxing Club, soon to be Extreme MMA or summit), is badass....the teachers, tough as nails...the students are quality, but that doesn't mean I'm any good....


....and I'm not.

I've got a blunt question. Reading the CMA-forum here I noticed lineage seems to be highly important, when it come to discuss someones abilities in CMA. It can be read in every book related to CMA, nearly every instructor, teacher, master....[IRONY_on] refers proudly to his/her exeptional teachers and their exeptional teacher's mystic teachers and so on... [IRONY_off]
Threads please. More than 5 started by actual forum members. Make sure the threads are legit. I don't want threads that say this guy was a Good Sanda Fighter, who Taught another Good Sanda fighter, who now teaches in your state.

That is good lineage.

From the Stickies at the top of the CMA forum.


1. No matter what he / she tells you your Sifu is not God.

Don't blame us (Bullshido nor the CMA forum) for what you read on other forums. Now we can't control what people say, like your erroneous OP, but we will try and correct it with facts.






Now for a bad instructor won't get better, if his/her teacher was exeptional, what is so damn important about having lineage?Yes, we know. We can point you to multiple threads that have said this before I joined bullshido.





Is it important?Skill wise? No. Training wise? No. For Honesty and integrity? Yes.

Lineage isn't that important. Lying about lineage is a big problem. Which makes it important.


If it is, what for? It might be a hint for qualification, but it's certainly not a proof.Lineage is important to prove you trained and weren't a Videotape/Book Master that made something up. So yes, it is a form of proof. To me it is like going to college, many people are better than some graduates at their job, yet a degree is used for advancement in many cases.

It doesn't mean they are better.

Unfortunately, unless I know you very well, you aren't going to fix **** on my car, house, nor children with out verifiable credentials.

Same goes with Martial Arts, if you can't prove you trained (lineage) I'm leaning towards not training with you. Now, the final determination is from a visit to the school. I know a few good people that dabbled here and there for training. Thing is they can't really teach (very hard) until, they get some type of verifiable lineage.

This isn't always true. There are schools that produce fighters that have no verifiable lineage. Then again they created their own lineage by training successful fighters. So, technically they do have lineage.





Just to avoid misinterpretation: I do not hold any lineage, not even one not worth speaking of, just nothing. I am fine with that, it just bothers me sometimes, when people, expecially chi-focused taijiquan-practitioneers, claim that **** like it makes them a better person or martial artist, what I constantly dare to doubt.This is how Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Dillman, and others keep their bullshit going.

What you did was make a straw man argument from your personal situation. You hold lineage if, you trained anything physical and not from books or videotape.

Now, you may not have an Instructor certificate but, that is a different matter all together.

Sorry one important thing.

Lineage=/=skill.


It is a road map so, you don't end up at Ashida Kim's dojo. You still have to go see the skill of the practitioner.

Usually most of it's about prestiege and who your training with denotes wether your training is "pure art or system". I mean even mixed martial artists have that too, i.e for example you study gracie system therefore you must be bad ass. Not always the case. I am not really held in high esteem in here but I can tell you at face value that lineage doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It's cool to have that kind of back ground if you do and actually studying under the set individual but making claims about set lineage and back ground doesn't make you any more crediable.


I mean a perfect example here is that one of my instructors at Wudang Shan Si was master Zhong Zhi Biao and he is a 15th generation of the Zhang San Fang school there is
oh okay so he is a daoist monk he has spent his entire life studying and training but is he a good instructor does understand the concepts of Neijiquan ( I would hope so considering wudang is internal school of martial arts), does he also have a firm understanding of Weijiquan or external arts and styles as well ? Just because a person may have a lineage or back ground doesn't mean they're good or better than others.

I was fortunate in the respect of the fact that Shifu Zhong was not worried about his lineage but what he could personally do himself. I learnedHuamen and Bagua in addition to Baijiquan and Xingyi styles taught. The training was grueling and hard I didn't spend hours practicing back flips and flying kicks. We spent time on Chuanshu ( bare handed fighting) and I got my ass kicked . But Sifu Zhong was a great instructor had a record of being in lei-tai and full contact matches . What does this all mean just because you have lineage doesn't make you any better then anyone else it's not pedigree ( some people like to think it is but it's not) and you personally can suck too.

Lineage is important for understanding the kind of skill, rather than the amount of skill, one might have.

On the most obvious of levels, I can spend ten years boxing, ten years wrestling, and then throw on some silk jammies and call my style Woohoo Style Taiji, which I learned from a guy in the jungles of Berkeley who had washed ashore in a barrel from China. And no, you can't meet the guy. Or see the barrel. And with ten years of boxing and ten years of wrestling, I may be able to teach you how to fight. But you won't be learning any taiji, even if I call my shovel hooks "Galaxy of Prawns Is Very Filling" or whatnot.

Lineage helps in understanding what is going on now, just like any other form of historical record. It gives you an idea of how an art might be or should be studied and what its goals are. Of course, carrying a lineage doesn't denote skill.

People become tudis for all sorts of reasons -- they might have some handy non-martial skills or charisma or a lot of money. One fairly high up Chen "master" has a large number of disciples here in the Western US. He couldn't have possibly have spent that much time with all of them, but having a bunch of white boys kowtow and give you big money presents makes for a lot of face in China, so it happens.

Ha, I can tell Fake has been through this many times.

Lineage is important for understanding the kind of skill, rather than the amount of skill, one might have.

On the most obvious of levels, I can spend ten years boxing, ten years wrestling, and then throw on some silk jammies and call my style Woohoo Style Taiji, which I learned from a guy in the jungles of Berkeley who had washed ashore in a barrel from China. And no, you can't meet the guy. Or see the barrel. And with ten years of boxing and ten years of wrestling, I may be able to teach you how to fight. But you won't be learning any taiji, even if I call my shovel hooks "Galaxy of Prawns Is Very Filling" or whatnot.

Lineage helps in understanding what is going on now, just like any other form of historical record. It gives you an idea of how an art might be or should be studied and what its goals are. Of course, carrying a lineage doesn't denote skill.

People become tudis for all sorts of reasons -- they might have some handy non-martial skills or charisma or a lot of money. One fairly high up Chen "master" has a large number of disciples here in the Western US. He couldn't have possibly have spent that much time with all of them, but having a bunch of white boys kowtow and give you big money presents makes for a lot of face in China, so it happens.




Well put Rivington learning and understanding the skill of the lineage is what Gongfu is about and lineage helps teach the historical basis and concepts that make a chinese martial art what it is, but the problem as with all things is how much of the lineage can be taken at face value ? What is myth and lore and what part of it is factual ? This is what usually causes the heated arguements of "who's who" in what set circle of style the or system the lineage is held.

The other problem too lies in how much does the instructor belief in the system and not
get lost withing the legend lore and legacy of a certian set individual or persons involved with that lineage. To not loose sight of what it's about what is important which is pefecting that wugong or skill.


Having a cultural transmission is also part of the lineage hence the reason for the history aspect being important but not over estimating what that skill is and the persuit of it to not be some kind of flight of fancy but an actual way of applying that set skill to the current reality and time.

I am not really held in high esteem in here

Bring this to the table again and I'll have you banned from the CMA forum are we clear?


Usually most of it's about prestiege and who your training with denotes wether your training is "pure art or system". I mean even mixed martial artists have that too, i.e for example you study gracie system therefore you must be bad ass. Not always the case. I am not really held in high esteem in here but I can tell you at face value that lineage doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It's cool to have that kind of back ground if you do and actually studying under the set individual but making claims about set lineage and back ground doesn't make you any more crediable.


I mean a perfect example here is that one of my instructors at Wudang Shan Si was master Zhong Zhi Biao and he is a 15th generation of the Zhang San Fang school there is
oh okay so he is a daoist monk he has spent his entire life studying and training but is he a good instructor does understand the concepts of Neijiquan ( I would hope so considering wudang is internal school of martial arts), does he also have a firm understanding of Weijiquan or external arts and styles as well ? Just because a person may have a lineage or back ground doesn't mean they're good or better than others.

I was fortunate in the respect of the fact that Shifu Zhong was not worried about his lineage but what he could personally do himself. I learnedHuamen and Bagua in addition to Baijiquan and Xingyi styles taught. The training was grueling and hard I didn't spend hours practicing back flips and flying kicks. We spent time on Chuanshu ( bare handed fighting) and I got my ass kicked . But Sifu Zhong was a great instructor had a record of being in lei-tai and full contact matches . What does this all mean just because you have lineage doesn't make you any better then anyone else it's not pedigree ( some people like to think it is but it's not) and you personally can suck too.

Notice, he is explaining that lineage isn't important but, he sells his teachers quals, his quals, the skills etc all the while saying it doesn't matter.
Watch this is what he is saying:



Just because a person may have a lineage or back ground doesn't mean they're good or better than others. True



lineage it's not pedigree ( some people like to think it is but it's not) and you personally can suck too.Actually it is it just doesn't translate to skill.




It's cool to have that kind of back ground if you do and actually studying under the set individual but making claims about set lineage and back ground doesn't make you any more crediable. Actually it really does. That's why I always laugh at this very question.

Lineage=/=Skill
Credibility=/=Skill.


Lineage=Credibility concerning your knowledge and learning of your art. See, If we can trace back that you studied 10 years that's your pedigree. That means you might be legit.

Lineage is important when you are trying to make sure someone isn't fraudulent. No, it isn't important when questioning skill and proficiency. These are two separate issues that are often mixed together to create straw-man arguments.


Perspective Student looking for a good teacher
He is a verified Sanda/MMA/BJJ/wushu competitor. Good.
He has verifiable lineage through "X" teacher. Better.
He has a fight record or produced "X" amount of verifiable fighters. Better.
He has shown his skills, his students have skills, when I watching class. Better.

Great school IMO.

Now some schools lack some of these things and that is fine. To me, no lineage equals no money from me in most cases.

Having a cultural transmission is also part of the lineage hence the reason for the history aspect being important but not over estimating what that skill is and the persuit of it to not be some kind of flight of fancy but an actual way of applying that set skill to the current reality and time.
No. No. No. No. No.

Go to a college, get a student visa, and learn Chinese culture in China.

AND


Lineage in anything, is a conversation piece. Like a man who has an exotic facial tattoo, or only half a face....it's likely to come up if it's got a lot to do with someone's self image, and the one they think they project out to the world.

If I can climb up onto my own nuts here (if I rip something, call the whaaambulence) but this illustrates a point.

If I'm describing my blues/r&b EP to someone, I might mention that the session bass player,that I'd hired, has also played with Brad Delp(RIP) the late singer of 'Boston'. Now, that might seem a little distant, but I'm in Boston, where 'Earnie and The Automatics' have two former members of Boston, and two studio heavyweights, and where Berklee and conservatory circles run deep.....it means something.

Name dropping, and lineage spouting serve an important function in networking.


If I told someone I also play in a cover band...they might laugh. If I then mention that the band leader is the lead bass for the Boston Pops, it would indicate to them, we might not be fucking around.


Now let me dismount my own scrotum, it's getting tender. Sorry to self promote...it's in my blood (and me tiny brain)

It's a bit more than namedropping. I know a zillion people as a writer -- I wouldn't say that any of them taught me how to write. Were I a lineage holder I could point twenty generations into the past and say, "All those cats are me."

That's a perfect example.



If I told someone I also play in a cover band...they might laugh. If I then mention that the band leader is the lead bass for the Boston Pops, it would indicate to them, we might not be fucking around.

Lineage and credibility.


See, no where in there did you say, "this makes my band the greatest ever to play."

What it does is make people want to check you out and/or take you seriously as opposed to, me and johnny joe who bought **** and have no verified musical ability.

Doesn't mean you are better or we are but, it means you will get a chance before some unknown garage band in most cases.

I agree with Riv that isn't name dropping.

AN earlier post, in this thread, did that for us already.